Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and l am the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. In this episode, we dive into the world of officiating with Rugby Union referee Amy Perrett, Amy has officiated at the Women's World Sevens Series, the 2016 Rio Olympic Games, the Women's World Cup Rugby final in 2014 and will officiate at the upcoming Tokyo Olympic Games. In 2020, Amy became the first female to take charge with the whistle in a Super Rugby match. Welcome, Amy. How are you?

Amy Perrett [00:00:57] I'm really good. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Cam Tradell [00:00:59] Fantastic. Thank you. Amy, I'll be really interested to understand, knowing that you have refereed at all levels and seeing you at the Super Rugby level. Do you have a process or what are your processes with regards to making decisions and basing them on what you see and how do you navigate through decision making.

Amy Perrett [00:01:19] Decision making now that I've been refereeing now for 18, 19 years or so. At the moment now it's all based on gut instinct, but to kind of get to that stage, you go through a lot of different things from where you start to when you get to elite. In Rugby, we have checklists for everything because, you know, so much is going on in the tackle or ruck. An average family who doesn't know rugby will probably think what is happening there. But, so we formulate these kind of checklists and they give us a process of what we need to look at each stage of a tackle, of a ruck, of the maul, or the lineout, all the different aspects of the game and as you are learning and developing those kind of decision making skills. They're the things that you going over at each phase. And the more experience you get, the better you get at it. What starts to become that gut feel, that potential kind of decision making mode. Once you figure all that out, it's funny because you start seeing refs then show that they know everything and probably over penalising and become way too technical. So once you realise you come to that stage and you blow 40 penalties in a game, most of the crowd kind of let you know that that's not what they want. We go through it like another stage and talk about making relevant decision. So, again, we can be very technical. I'm sure in any breakdown you could find a penalty that you want, but then we start talking about making a relevant decision. So is that a fair contest then? An even fair contest? That's good. Then we can kind of we can play away from that minor infringement. Is the ball quick? Is the team in attack able to get the ball as quick as they can if they can. And we say, OK, we can play away from that infringement. They are, I guess the two key things that we kind of, talk about, whether it is a fair contest, whether the speed of the ball's been affected and they now come into play around a relevant decision making. And I said the longer you kind of do it, it starts to become more of a gut instinct. And I don't know how many times I've overthought a decision and didn't trust my gut and I ended up being wrong. So that's kind of now what I kind of fall back on. You've always just kind of got the experience of all different styles and types of games to kind of get me that experience to just kind of trust those gut instincts. And there'll be times that I'm wrong. And that's OK, because that's another big part of our decision making process, and the journey to get to where you need to be because you learn from those mistakes and in Rugby,  some really weird stuff happens. And it might only happen once in your whole career, but you learn from it and you move on and figure out a different way so that you prepare for it again or it actually doesn't happen again, or you can pass it on to someone else so it doesn't happen to them or they are well prepared for it as well. And then when you get to the Super Rugby level, you just kind of have to be really confident. As you said, there's a lot of pressure coming at you from the crowd because they can watch a big screen, there is commentators and don't necessarily agree with your decision. Players and coaches are giving their two cents. So, again, just having confidence in yourself to be able to say, OK, this is what I'm seeing, right or wrong, this is how I'm going to call it, and then just move on. And most of the time, you actually are correct. I think that just having that confidence when going to get to that point, once you go through all these different phases, you get to the stage where you can back that. So if it doesn't happen overnight, you will go through this and it's those kind of stages in decision making before you can get to that stage with the confidence. And then you can trust your gut and practices.

Cam Tradell [00:05:44] It's interesting that you talk about the stages, because having that feel for the game becomes really important. And it's when you're looking at the impact of an infringement versus the severity, if you know what I mean. And I like that you talk about it's a real feel. I think there's a lot in that.

Amy Perrett [00:06:01] Yeah. And definitely you don’t just have to have a feel for the game when you get to the professional level. Having a feel for the game is so important at community level. Understanding what the players are trying to get out of out of the game and most of the time, they just want to have fun, play the game with their mates and have a game that can move and not stop and start all the time. So again, like I said, normally when we are refereeing community Rugby, we don't go to that stage and try to prove that we know everything and what those 40 odd penalties in a game which is just way too much. It's really important more so at that community level that you understand that, that you get that flow, let the guys play. You don't have to be perfect and they'll appreciate that better. And overall, I think everyone plays and spectates will have a better experience.

Cam Tradell [00:06:53] You talked a bit there about your communication and the different stakeholders that you need to communicate with.  On the field, you're a very clear communicator. How did you hone those skills, to be precise, to make a call, to communicate well? And then what's some of the other ways that you need to communicate? I'm guessing that after games or in reviews, you've got coaches that may come and ask questions. How do you best find your method or your way of communicating? And how effective do you find that you are in your communication?

Amy Perrett [00:07:28] Communication is a big part of the journey. When you start, you probably don't say a lot. Because you don’t know what’s happening. So its best to say nothing at all, But then again, as you move on, you start commentating the game and talk too much and then you start to learn when players respond, when they don't, depending on what kind of things you might say. And I found along the way this being really short, sharp and to the point is the best thing for players and at the outside spectators around the field, because if you walk along and over-explain something, particularly when people are under fatigue, the ref, like myself might not make sense because I'm tired. The players just probably just don't understand what you said. So if you just keep it two to one or two really simple messages, they have a far better impact on the game than commentating throughout the whole game or saying nothing at all. And it's about picking when you come in and when you need to stay out. You only want to come in when you have to actually have to manage a play and you think we'll get an outcome. There's no point saying stuff if you know you're not going to get the outcome, the desire the probably just going to give a penalty anyway or they've actually done the right thing and you just don't need to say anything at all. And you said the one big thing I found that's helped my communications is refereeing seven's. There's not a lot of time to talk so when you do get that opportunity, it has to be relevant and impactful for people to understand and get those kind of changes that you want to see. So I feel like that's been playing a huge part in where I've got now. Another thing like the first time I heard myself, a community that I think I was doing, a woman, a women's national tournament. And the first time I'd seen footage and heard myself. And it's a very uncomfortable moment with this, you know, you hear yourself refereeing because you just don't realise what you say and how often. And even just the tone of your voice you don't realise it's like that. So you learn from it where you can and listening back to to your conversations, to your tone of voice when you decided to say something, when you didn't and whether that was the right thing at that time of the game. And then communication like post match and coaches can always be a little bit tricky, depending on how the game went. And pretty much the only thing these things the other team were doing wrong, just to put those kind of images in your head and could manipulate me the way potentially. I think that might be the intention. And then post match, now you've got to really think about how you how you talked to a coach after the game. You don't want to put yourself in a corner or the next time you might say something the week after where you promised you wouldn't do. This is really it's a bit of a chess match, almost a bit of an arm wrestle still post much to communicate because there'll be times where they're just venting because they probably under pressure. You've got to understand that and not get overly offended and it's nothing personal, just part of the job. But there are times when you need to just back yourself. And this decision was correct for these reasons and it's a bit of an arm wrestle. And what I find helps is my referee coach, so the person I trust to be able to tell me or to assist me when I review the game this. I'm pretty good. I like reviewing games of around decisions, but not scrums always. That's one area that I'm never one hundred percent confident. I always seek help to make sure I got my decision making right, but around a tackle, I know that kind of area, you know for me, I can sit and review and I go, I got that one wrong or I got that one right so I don't really need extra eyes for that. Where I do need my coach is around those interactions with players and understanding the flow, or dominance, rewarding things being dominant around the game. But whether I set up the game so that it could get that nice flow and open rugby towards the back end and let players do their thing, I didn't have to come in. So it's those kind different aspects I'd go to my referee coach and talk to him about.

Cam Tradell [00:12:23] It's so important to have that sounding board. And it sounds like you've got great self-awareness and self reflection. But to have those extra set of eyes on those areas that you're unsure, I mean, maybe the gaps or where you could improve and be better, that's really interesting that you rely on it heavily, too.

Amy Perrett [00:12:39] Yeah, definitely. I think in all stages, like, no one's perfect and you always have to have that growth mindset and you have to know you're constantly learning something new each game and you're learning a new challenge and you kind of got to embrace if you want to get better, it's never going to be perfect. And there's always something that you can work on for the next game and having that person to kind of bounces those ideas off and it helps you kind of reach those goals that we need to make, because if you're just doing it on the run, you might not realise you do something. It could just be a tiny little fix and it can improve your game.

Cam Tradell [00:13:16] Entering into anything with the growth mindset if fantastic. Shifting gears a little bit. You've been referring fifteens at Super Rugby. And changing gears now to Sevens Rugby, having been appointed to officiate at the Olympics, how do you manage the two of those? Because they're two fairly distinct sports or fairly different sports. Even though the skills are the same, it's a different pace and a different mindset. How do you go about swapping between the two sports, especially at the elite level?

Amy Perrett [00:13:43] Yeah, it's something I think everyone struggles with, even the players coming back. For me, I find it harder to come back into the fifteens, sevens again I think sevens comes more natural and comfortable. It suits the style of my personality, I think, because I actually don't like going up and having to talk to people all the time on the field or do the pre-match where the sevens, I don't have to say much, I can just blow my whistle, move on. The game doesn't last too long. I can reflect straightaway on that game because then I have another game in about an hour or two hours, so I'm not sitting on something for a whole week, overthinking things that I did in the game. I can just get straight into it and move on. But I think the key things that are different and can be very difficult in decision making in sevens is very black and white that we don't operate in that grey area. You've been infringed or you haven't. And there's not a lot of management. So you see something, you generally just penalise and move on. And it's good because the players accept that as well. What they want to do is they just want to take a quick tap and move on. There is no kind of argument or like I said, there's not really that chess match or that arm wrestle with captains that you are trying to deal with. We could try to work with it either way and everyone is trying to manipulate to their advantage. So when I come back into fifteens, what I really try and focus on is making those relevant decisions, taking a breath before I call something, because the instinct is to just put my whistle to my mouth and blow a penalty. And so it's just taking that extra half a second just to see what happens, whether I can play away from something or whether I blow that penalty then and there so it takes a few weeks to kind of get that feel back, like if it's sevens it's that start and stop, not a lot of flow because if you do blow a lot of penalties you might blow ten penalties in 14 minutes, which is a lot. Whilst in fifteens you wouldn't dare to do that once you start giving out all the cards and then the spotlight coming on you, which is again, something you don't really want so for me it takes a few. Even the number of people on the field can be quite difficult around a tackle or a ruck because when it's one on one, very easy to see what's happening. So when got three of four people diving into something, you kind of get a bit lost sometimes. And then that makes you uncomfortable. Sometimes when you're uncomfortable, that's when you revert to what you know, and that probably shouldn't happen. So yeah, just being really that I just need to take my time, get the feel for the game, don't impose myself too much. And in the first ten minutes I start to get that feel back in and they'll still be a few decisions that I will get and review, and, you know, I didn't need to call them, I'm a little bit pedantic with sevens penalty, but yeah, just reflecting on that during the game and after and hopefully the next week, I'm a bit better get a bit more flow.

Cam Tradell [00:17:18] Amy, thanks very much for your time this afternoon and sharing your insights. Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Introduction [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the project lead for coaching and officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. We're lucky enough to have Professor Rochelle Eime on the phone today, Professor Rochelle Eime is the director of Sport and Recreation spatial, which focuses on investigating sport and recreation participation facilities and health for evidence-based decision making. She has strong industry networks within the sport and health sector, including state and national government agencies, as well as sport and recreation organisations. Rochelle has written over 300 peer review publications, book chapters and industry reports and research, and has won a number of state and national research accolades. On top of that, Rochelle has been involved with club based sport throughout her entire life as a player, coach, volunteer and now parent of players and is a board member of Vic Sport. Welcome, Rochelle, thanks very, very much for joining us.

Rochelle Eime [00:01:21] Thanks very much it's great to be here.

Cam Tradell [00:01:21] Rochelle, you've done a lot of research in your role and you've got some fantastic insight to our current volunteers of coaches and officials. And I was wondering, do you have any thoughts on, you know, throughout the last 10 years, the last decade or so, how has coaching and officiating changed in the landscape of sport?

Rochelle Eime [00:01:42] Yeah, I think one of the biggest things with coaching is the qualification of the coaches and the quality of the coaching. So we don't always see that the grassroots that the coaches necessarily have coaching qualifications or updated skill sets that might still be in the mindset of when they played footy or netball or tennis and deliver the sport the way it was delivered for them. And we need to make sure that it's quality coaching that looks at improving their skills. It's about inclusion of all participants, but also it's about improving the skills for everyone, not just those to the best on the ground. And it's about also to the the players having fun and enjoyment. It's not all about winning medals and trophies. And we need to try and change that mindset a bit to.

Cam Tradell [00:02:29] That's great. You talk about accreditation. You sort of are you leaning more towards competence of the people because so many bespoke or different sorts of environments that coaches and officials delve in these days. And it's no longer just a one size cookie cutter fits all approach.

Rochelle Eime [00:02:48] Absolutely. It's not about the certificate in the frame or it's in the drawer. It's about being competent to be able to improve the physical literacy of the children. So that's not just their skill set. It's about making sure the children or adults or adolescents have the competence to be out to play and be active throughout life. It's not just about the skills for that particular sport. It's more broader than the physical literacy.

Cam Tradell [00:03:11] With regards to physical literacy, one or two of those domains of the physical literacy may actually be more important to some groups than others. And I guess that becomes a real driver. And being able to understand that and having an understanding as a coach, what's required in front of you becomes crucial.

Rochelle Eime [00:03:29] Absolutely, because the motivations of why people play are really quite different. The motivation has changed throughout the lifespan, but they also change according to the drivers of the players themselves. You've got those that are driven to exceed in those sports and that those are others that just want to play with their mates or have fun. You know, the main motivations for the adults to play sport is fun and enjoyment and social reasons. And then the physical health and fitness and then performance and competition for adolescents. Again, it's fun and enjoyment, physical health and fitness, but playing with their friends. So it's all about being with others and enjoying that connection with others, it's not about winning and it really makes no one goes out there to lose, everyone enjoys winning, but it's not the main motivator, because if it was, more than 50 percent of people are really disappointed every time they go out to play because only half the people win. So it can't be the main motivator and it's not. But we see a lot of coaches, a lot of club officials and presidents always focus on the men's A grade side, winning or winning the premiership or best on grounds. So how many flags and trophies they have in the club. But that's not a main motivator for why people drive to play sport. And it's not a main motivator why people continue to play sport. And we see a massive drop out across the board in in a club-based sport.

Cam Tradell [00:04:47] Yeah, that's interesting. Fifty percent success I would have been happy with when I was playing. To be honest with you Rochelle,I tend to be on the low side of that. But maybe that says a little bit more about me. With that in mind, with regards to how we grow a vibrant support base, do you feel like Australia's still a volunteering nation? What have you seen with the trends and the research and the data

Rochelle Eime [00:05:10] Club based sport in Australia is a volunteer sector and in an industry unlike some other sort of countries overseas and to the nature of club based sport in Australia is it's generally an individual sport within an individual club. Now you might have footy and netball, but they are still to seperate sports. You don't have the the multi sports sectors that you might see over in Europe where kids can sort of easily transition around into different sports within that one sort of system and sector. The volunteers in sport are generally players, past players or parents of players. And so the trouble is you have quite a big churn rate with those volunteers and especially in the junior clubs. As soon as those juniors aren't playing anymore, those adults aren't going to continue necessarily to volunteer that club. They're going to follow where their children go to school or drop out of volunteering as their children move on. And I'm concerned that due to COVID that there's that loss of transition. So often you have the people that are volunteering the club, their children might be at the older age, so they've been around the club for quite a few years, sort of know what's going on. And they often have that transitional year of sort of being mentored into future roles such as president or secretary or coach, et cetera. And last year, especially in Victoria, when that was lost, I'm concerned that there's that loss of transition of skill set, because often there's not a lot of support in these volunteer roles. And I think that that's going to be a big concern for clubs, especially, too, with an extra layer of bureaucracy and guidelines due to covid. Some and a lot of sports are concerned, not necessarily just retention of players, but retention of volunteers, because without the volunteers, there is no game day.

Cam Tradell [00:07:01] That's really interesting and doesn't really lend itself to to what you were just talking about with regards to parents who are in coaching or officiating for their kids, actually just following their pathway and making sure knowing that their main motivator is fun, it sort of seems to take them out of their environment if they're going up the linear scale of accreditation.

Rochelle Eime [00:07:23] And what we say with the with the linear scale is the issue that the better coaches sort of tend to coach the better kids in that model. I know with my boys footy club that they're involved with that's just starting up again this season. They're struggling to find coaches for the ressies for the for the reserves teams. Now they're the ones that probably need the best coaches to actually improve the skills of those players. So we sort of have this mindset that the better the players, the better the coaches or the coaches want to coach, the better players. But we need the better coaches down at the grassroots, at the entry level, the ones that can really help those those children develop those skills and that competency and confidence. I know actually coaching younger children is actually a lot more difficult to do. And you need really good coaches at that level. And that and that age.

Cam Tradell [00:08:17] A hundred percent I couldn't agree more. The support of that area there is is really lacking. And the ability, the role that people can play, like the parents who are good enough to stick their hand in the air and come and coach at that level the impact that they can make with a little bit of help and mentoring from people who are, as you say, identified as good coaches, can make a massive difference with regards to intrinsically motivating people to remain in sport.

Rochelle Eime [00:08:43] And I don't think that's where clubs necessarily connect the skill sets of their club community with the actual roles. For example, you know, I was a level two tennis coach coached for many years when my children were starting playing football in sort of under 10s, there are about eight, you know, I can kick footy and handball well enough for under 10s footy. I put my hand up several times to help out with training when they asked for people to help out at training. By the third time I'd done that, I wasn't asked to step out on the ground, it was only the dads that were asked to step on the ground. So there was four blokes standing there, there was two lines and one footy and about 40 footies sitting on the ground and the kids barely touched the ball. It was really poorly run. So I think it's about seeing through those biases, and it's not just gender, it could be age, it could be people from outside of sport that could actually be really good in certain roles within another sport. I think we need to match the skill set of the people rather than just this mindset that the best player of the sport is the best one to run the sport.

Cam Tradell [00:09:45] Again, I agree. I think that's really, really important. What would be some of the ways that you feel like we could re-engage or get individuals coming back to sport?

Rochelle Eime [00:09:55] I think it's that I think it's about trying to articulate what the value proposition rather than just sort of seeing as an extra chore or an extra burden that people have to do. You know, there's some great things that people can learn and develop through, through volunteer roles and leadership roles within clubs. And I think we need to highlight what those, those aspects are. And especially for youth. I think we need to get more the youth involved instead of the ' pale, male, and stale' running every decision and and everything in sport. I mean, half of all sports participants are aged between five and 15. So we need more them in decision making. And why can't we have more formal leadership and mentoring of those youth into taking on some of these roles, they see the value in what they're gaining in their skill sets is going to help them out in their career as well.

Cam Tradell [00:10:42] That's fantastic. I think there's some parallels that can really be drawn. What would you say needs to happen next? How do we sort of get to that point that people want to get back to their club? What do you think is going to help us kick start that next?

Rochelle Eime [00:10:54] I think it's about trying to highlight the good of sport, so highlighting the good things we always see in the media, all the negative things with sport. And it's often at the elite end. Why can't we highlight the good things I was presenting to sports this week and state Government and Vic Health, and we're seeing some really good five year trends of female participation. Now, we don't see change overnight, but change can occur and it does occur, but it takes five years. So I think if we can highlight what is good about sport, it's about the physical, the mental, the social health and wellbeing. It's about connecting individuals, families and communities. It's about learning in leadership roles, whether it's coach or other volunteer roles. And I don't think we we highlight the good things about sport. I think it's often about winning or, or centralising good players. We should be centralising the volunteers, the people who've made the sport happen. I think we pick on people, you know, the the bad behaviour we often see towards towards umpires and the yelling, you know, why can't we all just be nice.

Cam Tradell [00:12:03] Exactly. Create these positive experiences. That would be a utopia. That that'd be fantastic

Rochelle Eime [00:12:08] Yeah, if we put enjoyment central to everything. And if we make it about being fun and people having fun and connecting with others in a fun environment, I think we can do so much and that that fun environment doesn't might look different for those with lower skills and those for high skills, and those are really like a real formal competitive model than those that don't. But it's still about enjoyment because that's what people are there for.

Cam Tradell [00:12:32] It's the major motivator for everyone. And there's some flawed thinking around the fact that enjoyment isn't the main motivator for people in high performance. It needs to be the main motivator for people in high performance.

Rochelle Eime [00:12:43] If they don't enjoy it, it's it's it's it's really tough.

Cam Tradell [00:12:46] I'm going to throw a blue sky question to you. Have you got a view on what's the utopia? What's the sporting environment? What do you see as being something that we can all strive for, a really solid stretch target for us to what the environment of sport looks like in this country?

Rochelle Eime [00:13:02] I think it's about being an inclusive, inclusive environment. So that can make a lot of things, but it's about being inclusive of diversity, of skill and of ability and race and of age and but but also to inclusive decision making. So, you know, the board and the committee, we can't have sport run the way it's always been run. We need to have fresh eyes. You know the way,  We need to think about the way sport is delivered. And we have modified sport, which is "fun, friends and fitness and skill development", which is great. And then we have that transition to club competition. Now, that's great, too, but only for those that are really good at the sport and really love that competitive model. I think we need to open our eyes up into more the organised but not so focussed on competitiveness, so the social rec programs, because there's a lot of people that want to play sport but but aren't good enough to play in the competitions or don't want to be in that space.

Cam Tradell [00:14:06] Rochelle, thank you very, very much for joining us today. This has been fantastic, really insightful. And I wanted to thank you for your time.

Rochelle Eime [00:14:14] No worries, thanks very much.

Cam Tradell [00:14:18] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Sport AUS introduction [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the project leader for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series. We will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, we're fortunate enough to be joined by Mick Byrne via phone at the airport, Mick was part of a successful Australian Rules football team and won a premiership before successfully transitioning to coaching rugby and has worked across England, Scotland, Ireland and Japan before winning two World Cups with New Zealand. Mick then found himself in Australia, where he took up a role with Australian Rugby Union as the national skills coach. Welcome, and we look forward to chatting, mate.

Mick Byrne [00:01:01] Yeah, thanks, Cam.

Cam Tradell [00:01:02] Seeing things from such a broad spectrum. I'd be really interested in how you see the system working, knowing what community has to offer, what's the richness that can come from community that yes, you get your participation in community, but what does that actually offer to high performance with regards to a value?

Mick Byrne [00:01:22] I think the biggest one for me is the love of the game. I think, you know, the true community, it creates that, you know, as I say, the love of the game and people involved in sport enjoying themselves and, you know, continuing on from when you're a kid, like when you're when you're a little kid, you play sport because you love it and you have fun. And I think community has a role to play in making sure that that stays stays true all the way through. You know, I think, you know, we'll probably talk about it a little bit in greater detail. I think community can also have a have a stronger role in the way they prepare players without without losing that enjoyment, but how they can prepare players for a career. But I think the key is that whenever I talk to any players and, you know, the more I coach, the more I realise that, you know, I'm speaking to, you know, players that have just recently retired after, you know, 25, 30 years in the game. As you know, the thing that they've talked about is, is the reason why they are probably giving the game away at age 38 is the fact that they've had a great innings and they can't do the job that they love. You know, they can't do the game anymore, that they love doing. And that's the thing they talk about. It's it's it's a game that they love doing.

Cam Tradell [00:02:44] Your coach and your officials obviously play such a major role in what that experience looks like with with that sort of in mind, where do you see the benefits for coaches and officials with regards to getting that that, you know, open conversation and dialogue with with athletes and participants?

Mick Byrne [00:03:02] Well, I think, you know, having gone back to community and working with community, one of the things that's never changed and I know it was I know it was something that motivated me, and maybe that's why I chose coaching, but it was something that motivated me as a as a player. I just wanted to be able to do what I was supposed to be able to do, you know? So if I was playing, you know, when I grew up, I was playing rugby league. So if I was if I could break tackles and score tries or make tackles or kick goals when all the shooting like that, that's what I wanted to be able to do. And so every day I turned up to training. I wanted to I just wanted to be able to do those things. And I got frustrated as a kid not being able to, you know, make line breaks or break tackles. And I'd just go away and I'd work on stuff and I'd look on telly and I'll see what, you know, when I was growing up, you know, the players down at Manly Rugby League, you know, I was trying to emulate what those guys were doing. And I think that when I go back now, sport has become a lot more professional than it was back in those days for everybody. I look back and I think, you know, if coaches can continue to provide that at a community level and just keep helping young players get better and to be able to do what they want to do and not get caught up in this watching teams, and this is how this team plays and look at this move that this team does, but just continually work on helping young players and, you know, get better and keep the love of the game and turn up the training and try and be better players than they were yesterday. You know, so the whole concept of being better today than I was yesterday and waking up tomorrow and try and be better than I was today, we can provide officials and coaches and and everything can provide that for young players coming through that I will keep the love of the game because, you know, the more that the more I talk to the young players that that's what they want to do and how do I do that. Or how do you do that or how does he do that? You know, and I think that's the motivation around that is enormous. you know, we talk about intrinsic motivation, but I think we can provide that opportunity for young players, by the way, we coach them.

Cam Tradell [00:05:15] Some great insights there it is. It's the it's the environment that is created and people mistake the word fun and challenges and they sort of get them mixed up, fun is challenging people at their own level.

Mick Byrne [00:05:27] Yeah. Look what I talked about this last year with the team I was coaching. They were talking about, you know, they'd had a bad run, they hadn't won for a couple of years and they were talking about they're not having any fun. You know, they're not having any fun in their environment and we talked about it. One day we went out to train and it was snowing and it was about minus two and we were doing some line-out sessions and we had a big Fijian guy, and he was really struggling in the cold weather and we have these lineout lifting aids, you know, the stretchy ones you put over your legs and he couldn't even put them on and the boys had to help him put them on because his fingers were frozen. And anyway, we got out, we went inside and afterwards and we had some breakfast. And the noise in the breakfast area was unbelievable how loud it was. And we had our team meeting and I said, honestly, boys, we've talked about fun. Did anybody have any fun today? And they're like, Oh, I looked at the Fijian fella, and I said, Did you have fun this morning? He goes NO! "I didn't have fun at all". I said, But how do you feel now? He says, "I feel unbelievable. I loved it" because it was the fact that you went through it together. It was the way we created the training and and the fact that they got through that together, that created an enormous amount of enjoyment from them. And we didn't go out there to try and have fun. But guess what they had in what was the worst environment was they they finished training and they're like, oh, how cool was that? It was awesome. And so, yeah, I think it's if you create the right environment and, you know, we've talked about this before about creating the right learning environment where players are finding things out for themselves and problem solving. It doesn't matter what what you're doing, they'll have fun. At the end of the day, they're going to have fun.

Cam Tradell [00:07:15] It's interesting, because you're talking about the the team meeting afterwards. And, you know, when you started to interrogate afterwards and you're getting that player feedback that really helped you so that you start to create that environment. How important is that feedback for a coach to learn and to understand themselves better?

Mick Byrne [00:07:31] I think if you're, if you... I think for me, Cam when I first started, it's important that you realise you've got two ears and one mouth, and when I was young, when I was a young coach, I forgot about that proportion, you know, so I tended to use my mouth like I had to two mouths and one ear you know, like I was I just didn't I thought that was my role as a coach. And, you know, really, you know, if you use that, you know, the two ears and one mouth concept, then you got twice as much listening, as much talking, and you're probably going to be a reasonable coach. And, you know, you do have those moments through your career where if you're listening, you actually hear some some things that you can learn from

Cam Tradell [00:08:16] looking at those those moments that that the "aha", the penny drop moment for an athlete, with you with regards to this could be in high performance, or community. Have you got any sort of insight  to methods that you use to sort of bring the best out of players and how does that sort of  work for you?

Mick Byrne [00:08:35]  Yeah, I think for me, you know, you'd spend you could spend a lot of time, you know, imparting your knowledge and it not be received. And and I think one of the things I've learnt is to create Problem-Solving opportunities of training and asking questions about, you know, where the where the knowledge is that from your playing group. And I went out did an under 10s coaching. So is this works for the community as well, you know, and you go out and you do you know, I worked an Under 10s team up on the Sunshine Coast and we were doing some tackle tech and we were working on getting there, getting their wrap and getting their feet in. And we were doing it on the tackle bag. And and the thing is, I just asked the question, you know, you're sort of working away and you say, you know, tell me, how did that feel? Did you get a good wrap on there? Where were your feet when you made contact and, you know, were you feeling strong or were you in the right position? And they ask. And then the thing is, when you ask the question is you wait for  the answer and sometimes you don't get the answer. And when you're when you first start off as a coach and you start asking these questions sometimes five seconds can feel like five minutes and you've just got to be patient and let them sort it out. You know, because I hear a lot of coaches these days because they've been told, you know, ask questions, ask questions, they ask the question. And if I don't get an answer within two minutes, two seconds, they're like, well, that's what we need. What we need to do here is we need to get our feet in close. And everyone, justs nods their heads, but they don't understand what they're actually nodding their head about. So I think it's for me, it's about asking questions and giving them time to answer. And if they do give an answer that they're not quite sure of. And I know you've experienced this with me a couple of times. I might say ask a question. And they. And the guy look at me and like," well what were your thoughts", and he might say something with a with a sort of an inquisitive answer and I'll say, do you think is that what you think or are you guessing? "Oh I don't know..." Well, let's do it again. Let's just let's just do it again and see what you feel and tell me, "Oh OK...", and then you might ask him again and he goes, obviously, I'm not doing it because you keep asking me questions and I'm like "that's ok mate," and then all of a sudden they'll turn around, and they'll go " Oh, now I feel it" and then you're done, you know, like the fact is that, you know, some players that some, especially kids, they don't realise, they think they're doing something and until they actually realise they're actually not doing it or your instructions aren't going to help them. And I think that's the thing I found with when I went to the Under 10s, even at Under 10s. And then I come up afterwards and this kid gets knocked over in a tackle and his dad says to him, "Oh what happened there?" he goes. Well, I just didn't get my feet in close, and I knew it as soon as I got hit. I didn't have my feet in close and I just got knocked over. And he Dad looks at me and goes " What have you done to my son?"  And I said well, he's done it himself mate, I didnt do anything. He did it himself. You know, he found that out for himself. And I think that's the you know, that's the challenge as a coach is to create these learning environments where you're asking questions, but you're allowing the players to find the answers themselves. And, you know, some players are really good at it. Some players have great awareness. And, you know, like straight away, they realise what they're doing. Others take a little bit longer and we can grow this into a team environment as well. What do you think we should do here, this position on the field and have they have the have the team sorted out for themselves as well? And it's very easy. I like to make the sort of I won't use the words I usually use here Cam, but we we you know, you can have great Mondays to Fridays and average Saturdays as a coach, or you can have average Monday to Friday and great Saturdays. And what I mean there is you can you can be a coach who runs you really great training sessions, tell players what you want and players go out and do exactly what you want. And I get the Saturday in this struggling or you can create Monday to Fridays where there's a bit of chaos at training, there's Problem-Solving. No one's really going well. You finish training, and you thought" gee that wasn't a great session, we really struggled through that". But then you come out on Saturday and the players deliver everything you've asked of because they sort sorted it out for themselves during the week. And that that to me is one of the big things is, you know, if you can create an environment as a coach, you have to get comfortable with this. You have to get comfortable being uncomfortable in sometimes your training sessions just don't go exactly the way you'd like them to. As long as you've created problems and they're getting solved, you know, the answer will be good at the end of the day. So. I think that's the challenge that I sort of found myself needing to change.

Cam Tradell [00:13:39] That empowerment for the players. And the moment you almost had those dual celebrations between the coach and the athlete and them making the instinctive decisions on the field, I think becomes so important when they're competing rather than the conscious mind taking over rather than the instinct and having that chaos is so crucial at the training.

Mick Byrne [00:14:01] And you don't want to be out of control though, you don't want to be just throw the ball into the middle of the field and say, let's go for it. Or, you know, what you're doing is you're creating the environment that's in the context of the game so that they can sort things out. And and that's the challenge of a coach, you know, like "What do we want to achieve here?", we want to achieve that player's awareness of what we're doing, I want them to be thinking about the decisions they make in a game. And the big one is we want them to be able to enjoy the fact that they're contributing to it, you know, and and they're not going to do that if you're saying things and the players don't really understand what you're saying. If players are sitting there in a room and not so, I don't really know what he means by that. And they're too embarrassed to ask the question. And I'm only saying this because I went through it as a coach, you know, like you don't realise it, but you sit there and you're delivering stuff that's really good because, you know, you've done the the hours of the research. You've looked at the footage. You're really clear in your head what it looks like and you get up and deliver something. And if someone doesn't understand it, it's like, well "what's wrong with them?" You know it's pretty clear to me what what we need to do. And for any coaches that that are feeling that, you know, try and teach a, you know, a primary school kid, that three plus two equals five. And when they don't get it, try and explain to them. Then you'll know whether you're a good coach or not. Just, you know, because three plus two equals five. Yeah, well, we all know that. But at the end of the day, when you're learning it for the first time, sometimes it's not as simple as we think. And this is the part of being a coach.

Cam Tradell [00:15:35] Fantastic inside there, Mick, thanks so much. The having clear purpose and context as sessions becomes so crucial to creating these positive learning environments. Mick Byrne, I want to say thanks very, very much and I look forward to catch up again soon.

Cam Tradell [00:15:52] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Intro Voice over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I am the Project Lead for Coaching Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system.  Each podcast we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:34] I am fortunate enough today to have Claire Polosak join us on the podcast, Claire's the first female ICC umpire to officiate in a men's cricket Test match in the world. So we're very, very fortunate to have her and to speak to us. So welcome, Claire. Thanks very much for joining us.

Claire Polosak [00:00:50] No, thank you very much. I'm looking forward to the experience of having a chat with you.

Cam Tradell [00:00:54] Thanks very much, Claire, I'd love to get some ideas or some sort of background on some of the ways that you make decisions on the field and being an official or being an umpire. Did you play cricket growing up or were you exposed through the umpiring pathway?

Claire Polosak [00:01:10] Yeah, I never played cricket growing up. I grew up in a regional town and at the time there wasn't that I remember any girls’ cricket and I didn't want to play with the boys. I guess I was too scared to and I know lots of girls did play with the boys, but I was a bit scared to do that and then I followed cricket from a distance. I had all the cricket players on my walls growing up and then every year mum and dad would be our family holiday would be to come to the Sydney Test match. And then when I was about 15, a friend, actually her dad, suggested that I complete the umpiring course because I like cricket. And so it did take me, I'm not sure how many times, but it was at least three times to pass the exam. I think being 15, 16 and never having played cricket definitely impacted the knowledge and the awareness around the laws of cricket. But every time I completed the assessment, I got a little bit better. And so it was just something I was really determined to do. And what I was I was forever jumping up and down when I finally passed the assessment task.

Cam Tradell [00:02:06] In really high-pressure situations. It's got some real learnings that we can take from what you do to what happens at the community level, knowing that there's different levels of pressure and so on at the community. But I'd love to sort of get an idea of some of the processes that you've got with regards to how you make your decisions. And if you can sort of broaden out on that when you do make a bad decision or you're aware of making a bad decision, how do you go about managing that on the field, knowing that you're out there for a long time?

Claire Polosak [00:02:34] Yeah, great question there. So I think at umpiring at any level, if you are striving to be 100 percent in every game that you do or even if every over that you do, it's potentially setting you up to not be perfect. So you really it's all about striving for excellence and what are the processes that you can put in place to ensure that you're doing the best that you can in order to make the best decisions as possible. When I am out in the middle, I have found that when I've made mistakes, it's usually because I've rushed my decision making processes. So it's really about slowing it down. You've got if you're umpiring, particularly in cricket, between, you know, the delivery, the fielders appealing and then you having to make your decision, you've actually got more time than what you think you do. So just taking it, taking a second to have a breath replay, I replay the ball in my mind to make sure that what I saw the first time matches up with where I where I'm thinking and then make your decision based on the information in front of you. Umpires in cricket are making decisions every delivery, even if there's no appeal. And so it's just about making sure you can tick off those boxes as you get towards the final result. So I think for an LBW decision, for example, if the ball is going on to hit the stumps, that's actually the last question I ask myself. You start off with, is the ball a fair delivery where did the ball pitch, what was point of impact? What was the line of the interception? And then was the ball going on to hit the stumps? So it's really about slowing your processes down to make sure that you can take in all the information that's available to you and to use that to your best of ability. But something that with all sports, I imagine that new umpires or new officials are going to make mistakes, and it's about learning from those mistakes to work out why they occurred and then to improve on them next time. So that with it comes into routines. So you mentioned about being on the field for a long period of time, if I start a day of cricket an 96 over day and I think I've got seven, six and a half, seven hours of cricket in front of me, you usually exhausted before you start. So I'll actually break the I'll break the over down or day down. I'll break the day down into even just two over blocks, so when I'm at square leg I'll say to myself, "let's have two good overs Claire, let's have two good overs". And then every time I'm at square leg, I repeat that to myself. When I'm at the bowlers end, I have a couple physical triggers and also some mental triggers that allow me to switch up when the ball is about to become in play and then to switch down when the ball is dead. We don't really talk about it a switching on and off because there's always something for us to be looking at. But there are certain points during the game where we don't need to concentrate as hard as when the ball is in play.

Cam Tradell [00:05:29] That's really interesting. where you're talking about always something to be looking at and I'm guessing that there's times when the things off the delivery, so outside of the delivery with potentially, you know, the chatter around the field or a little bit of banter, someone isn't happy about a decision, whether it's one that you've made or one that one of their friends have made or, you know, team mates where there's a dropped catch or there's where they think they've been hard done by. And you've got those other by playing things going on. How do you manage that with regards to trying to keep your focus on what's important on the field when you've got all these other things to sort of manage as well?

Claire Polosak [00:06:01] Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge when potentially there's a decision that hasn't gone the right way has happened. If you acknowledge it, it means that you contain it, which means that you can then then move on to it, move on from it. Sorry. And I have in the past, you don't really want to be doing this a lot of the time. But I had a game where I made a decision. It was incorrect and the captain was very agitated about it. And he came up to me and he wanted to talk about it. And I just said to him, I know I've made an error, but we can talk about it after the game. And when we did talk about it after the game, he actually said that acknowledging it enabled him to relax. He knew that he wasn't going to have to have had a discussion with me about it being wrong because I knew it was wrong. And that just sort of cut it, nipped that behaviour in the bud. And he was able to go on concentrating with his own captaining of his team. But it's not something you want to do all the time. And I think it's really important to push if you have made a real or perceived error, you should try, and it's easier said than done, just like playing,  officiating practice is what gets us there. But if you're able to push it to the side so that you can focus on the next delivery, because if you're focusing on the next delivery or the next passage of play, then you'll still your mind will be in the past. And in order to avoid making errors, we need to make sure our mind is where our body is. And that's and so it's so much easier said than done. But if you can push it aside for me, I actually write it down in my notepad, so it's like a shopping list that I don't have to remember to remember it later on and then I can go back and go through, hopefully not a too long a list, but go through the instances where I have potentially made an error and try and work out what happened that didn't enable me to make a really good decision at that point in time.

Cam Tradell [00:07:52] That's fantastic insight to the self awareness you've got. Do you ever write down things that are positive, that have happened? So something that you picked up and that's almost a skill that you want to put in the bank to perpetuate that behaviour? Is it always a negative that happens or is it sometimes reinforcing a positive?

Claire Polosak [00:08:08] Yeah, it's funny you say, I think humans recognise or notice negative things seven times more than positive things. So it is only the incidences, I guess, that don't make my own expectations that I write down to address and to work out why they occur. But you're right. I mean, I think acknowledging it and celebrating the wins are really important and teamwork, it's sort of teamwork is really important. You know, we're out there on two people versus 11 people in the field. And, you know, when your partner makes a really good decision, give them a little thumbs up. Don't make it too obvious. But, you know, if your partner has made a really good decision, if my partner has made a really good decision when the ball is dead and I’ve got eye contact with them because we have eye contact, every delivery, just a little thumbs up by the side, just reinforces what you're saying there. The positive decisions that they've made say this to acknowledge that that I have had a really good decision there so that they can be  confident and comfortable in what they're doing as well.

Cam Tradell [00:09:13] It's interesting because you're talking about the ways that you're supporting each other as another team on the field, which I think is really, really important. And seeing what happens at the elite level where the scrutiny under a decision is so intense with regards to it must come up on the big screen or it used to come up on the big screen and you can be scrutinised and at least you can get some closure with regards to good, bad decision. But at the community level, I'm guessing it becomes more difficult because it becomes about an opinion and everyone on the field has got an opinion from their angle. You know, from cricket terms, people calling LBWs from fine leg is a bit of a stretch. I just I love the way that good umpires can really manage that. Keeping in mind that the experience on the field becomes so important, do you try and influence the feeling on the field, or manage it being an upbeat environment?

Claire Polosak [00:10:02] Yeah, I think having clear communication and good people management skills will get you a long way on the sporting field. In cricket, it's very much that umpires are there to facilitate the game. It's not about us being the centre of attention and we are only brought into the game when the laws require us to be. So when I'm umpiring, I actually imagined myself as a jack in the box, so I only come out onto the only come out or I only speak when I'm spoken to by a player unless obviously, I'm required to do so, I think remembering that the game is there for the players at a community level, the players, and this is just sort of said to me just the other day at players, you know, they pay heavy subscriptions in some competitions to play cricket and it's their outlet for the week. And so they want to enjoy the game as much as you do as an official. So it's really about just ensuring that you can facilitate the game within the laws, within the spirit safely and just allow the games to happen in front of you.

Cam Tradell [00:11:04] Fantastic insight. That's amazing. I think that that's the piece that becomes so important is that enjoyment is really the factor.

Claire Polosak [00:11:13] If you if you if you don't enjoy umpiring and I imagine it's for any sport if you don't enjoy it, there are so many other things you could be doing with your time than officiating the sports, So I agree enjoyment 100 percent.

Cam Tradell [00:11:26] With that in mind, as you were coming through the system, you're talking about, you know, the difference between where you're at the moment in performance, working also in community and also working with the state side. Way back when you were coming through the system, was there ever a piece of information that you wish you were armed with to make your experience as a community coach coming through the system better?

Claire Polosak [00:11:52]  The one thing that I wish I did more was ask more questions of my other officials that I stood with, because when we're just learning out there so much, we don't know and you don't know, you don't know it. So I wish that when I was coming first coming through when I first started umpiring, that that I had the bit more courage, I guess, to ask questions, to ask why umpires do something in particular. And it just might have got me the information a little bit quicker than having to sort of find it out and bumble along by myself. So, I mean, the support networks were there. I just didn't use them probably as effectively early on as what I should have.

Cam Tradell [00:12:27] Yes. And when you were coming through asking people what they will almost help you with regards to that review process is important. When you were doing education and training, did you find that you were able to ask those questions through your courses, etc., or did you find that you did most of your learning when you're out out in the field? In the middle? .

Claire Polosak [00:12:50] Yeah, you can't replace watching balls in the middle to a large extent. And just getting when you when you first start out, just do as many games as you possibly can. I would even head to my local cricket team and standing in there nets during the training sessions just to again, just to listen to the sounds, to watch the ball or to watch what's happening, just to increase the number of balls that I was seeing to to increase the number of experiences that you can put in your backpack so that when you are in the middle of the field, you can pull them out of your backpack or pull them out of your toolkit for things that you've already seen. Because as we know, the more you do something, the easier it gets.

Cam Tradell [00:13:27] I can just imagine you look where you are now and you think about... What a journey.

Claire Polosak [00:13:33] And if you'd have told 16-year-old Claire the opportunities you would have had by the time she was 33, then there's just no way that she would have thought it was possible. So I think it's really exciting to see what comes next, not for me, but for the next generation of officials of any sport coming through with the increased opportunities that are coming around for everybody.

Cam Tradell [00:13:51] I'm so excited for what's happening next, for Claire Polosak, because understanding where you're at and seeing what you've done and the way that you handle yourself on the field, the way you handle players is second to none in this country. And it's something that I genuinely enjoy watching and it honestly adds to my enjoyment when I watch, and I'm certain that that's the case for a lot of other people. Thank you so much for joining us today, Claire. Really appreciate your time.

Claire Polosak [00:14:18] No ,you're very, very welcome.

Cam Tradell [00:14:22] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell, and I am the Project Lead for Coaching Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. And we're fortunate enough to have Louise Sauvage join us today in the studio. Louise is recognised not just for the extraordinarily successful career as a wheelchair racer, but for her pioneering efforts in raising the profile and perception of Paralympic sport and athletes in Australia and all around the world. Welcome Louise, thanks for joining us.

Louise Sauvage [00:00:51] Thank you for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:00:54] Louise, you've got a vast experience and a long history in sport as an athlete, but also as a coach and developing athletes coming through the system. Given that you're working with professional athletes at the top end, but also developing athletes and people entering into sport, how do you go about setting acceptable challenges if you've got multiple athletes in the same group or environment?

Louise Sauvage [00:01:19] Yeah, it can be a bit tough unfortunately. In our sport, there's not a lot of coaches and not a lot of people involved in our sport. So it's a very small community. So we have to be a kind of a jack of all trades to a certain extent. Having my group on a Saturday morning, which is it doesn't hold the really elite guys, it probably has a gamut of, as you said, beginners right up to some athletes that, you know, are knocking on the door, so to speak. And you're training them all together. I think more than anything, we set different goals and different sessions for them, but then we try and work them all together. You have people chase each other, have different goals, set them time goals, set them off, handicap them and that kind of thing on the track and trying to make it fun as well as them getting a lot of a lot out of it and achieving their goals and acquiring the skills. So it can be interesting, but it does give you the full, I suppose, range of your abilities is stretched as a coach to know that you have to deal with every single level.

Cam Tradell [00:02:24] I'm guessing that your experience over time to put a little bit in your in your kit bag with regards to how you service that, knowing that you've got different talent coming through and different abilities coming through. How do you get that mix between people who are really aspirational and wanting to go as far as they can go in the sport? How do you set those goals for those people with regards to achievable milestones, considering that you've got others in there that that are never, ever going to really make that the top level, but are really keen to sort of be there, be part of the community and compete?

Louise Sauvage [00:02:59] Yeah for the guys that obviously show a lot of talent and want to get to the next level, and they're motivated to do that obviously, we have different competitions in different times. Obviously, my sport is worked on on times for different events. So we do set goals within the year and also different competitions that they can go to. You know, that's been a bit hard in the last year or so. But, you know, a lot of my guys compete regularly during the season, so they have goals to compete for, especially when they come to Canberra and go on a nice track. So they really love coming here and they get PB's and it just spurs on when they get home and get back on a slow track. So it's really good. But within the group that I have on a on a Saturday, there are the guys that, you know, possibly won't make that level, but they're definitely there to enjoy the sport and they all mix really well. It's a great community, actually. And, you know, maybe they do or they don't know how far they want to go in the sport. But it doesn't matter even if they decide, you know, a couple of years down the track that ‘I actually do want to have a crack’ well, then, you know, they still there and I'm still there for them to try and help them achieve whatever goals they want to. And not everyone will get to a Paralympic level, but they could get to national level. They could increase their 10K, you know, decrease the sorry, the 10k time. That could be their goal. So it's all relevant for the different athletes. And we try and see that they're individuals that way. You know, just getting around the track for some of the athletes and staying in their lanes is a goal. And some of my guys still struggle to do that. And so it's just it's all relevant to the to the person and the age they're at. And when they started racing.

Cam Tradell [00:04:36] It's incredible the way that you work with that vast range of people. And over time we're talking about, you know, what's in your kit bag. I'd be really interested to know the different ways that you communicate or that you personally as a coach that you've learnt over time to get different messages across.

Louise Sauvage [00:04:53] Obviously, with the elite guys, we do a lot of video analysis, photos, we do a lot of different things to show them what they're doing and how they're doing it and analyse their races and then that kind of thing to try and get them to say also technique physically actually being there with them and showing them. And you talk about the communication styles. It's funny, when I work with the national team and those guys, I seem to have a different level of communication just because they know that I've been there and done that. And they kind of know that. They know that how I know how they're feeling at a crucial moment and what they potentially might need. And they don't have to explain themselves. And it's kind of nice, I think sometimes that you don't have to do that and you get to learn the your athletes as well. And you've got that trust between you as well. So it all comes down to how you communicate, I think, and how you get along with that person. But when with my younger crew, it's just treating them like regular people and asking them questions and a lot of the time. And I can only speak from my experience a lot of time when athletes with disabilities don't always, or people with disabilities sometimes don't get talked to sometimes. Especially the younger kids, their parents are always there or someone's there and they get spoken to in that respect. When I talk to them and I'm asking them about their disability, what they can and can't do, what they can feel to a certain extent and what they can't, they kind of look at me as if to say, ‘oh, no one really asks me’. And it's kind of cool. And I'm not kind of, I don't know. I don't care what your mum's got to say, I want to know what you say and I want to know what you [feel]. And so it's kind of different to be able to talk to them that in that respect, I don't mind if they're six years old. You know, I always say I'm going to change my language, but you know, they're 13 and they're giving me a hard time because I don't know who the Avengers are. So there's lots of things like that. There's different communication levels in that respect. But it's good. It's a good little community. And, you know, it doesn't matter if they know who I am or my history. It's just the way I can relate to all of them. And we have something in common with most of us who will have a disability.

Cam Tradell [00:07:03] That's incredible in the fact that you just sort of brought together a philosophy of coaching, I think that's pretty much across anyone that you've got in front of you is you said that you find out what they can do. And I guess any coach that's standing in front of any group realistically is looking at what can they do, what can they do and what do they need to do and how you co-create a session that's suitable for the people in front of you. I think that's an art in itself. But it sounds like it's really exacerbated here, or highlighted here, because you've got people with the different abilities that it sort of makes you really coach and really innovate. Would you say that's a fair sort of [summation]

Louise Sauvage [00:07:41] Yeah, I think it makes you a better coach. Nothing's stock standard, when you're coaching someone with a disability, you're always finding ways to think outside the square, how to adapt, how to make it work to what it should look like or how it could look like. And even if a child or an adult or teenager says to me, what, I don't think I can do that, well, let's have a crack, you know, let's see what you can do. And, you know, I'll be here, and if it hurts or, you know, you don't think you can do it, then we'll stop. But let's try this. And, you know, and lead by example as well. You know, I often use the other the other kids in the group or adults to use as an example. This is how I get in and out of my chair. This is how I push. These are the gloves I use that you and I have got those or you know, this is where you trying to contact on the rim. You know, I will use my 13-year-old to help my six-year-old. You know, I go around the track and fix their steering, so it's all about, them all teaching the new people and, passing it on like I suppose I do to a certain extent. So it's good. It's really good. You know, how you can communicate between them as well and everyone's equal. It doesn't matter. I mean, I don't care. You come down on a Saturday morning, you're in a race chair, you can have a crack. I don't mind what your disability is and what level you're at.

Cam Tradell [00:08:58] It sounds like your communities of practise, which is an extremely well researched and understood area. So where we're trying to get to with nationalising, coaching and officiating, especially with regards to people having self-awareness, having someone there as a mentor to sort of help them along for people to understand their gaps or where they need help. It sounds like that's really alive and well in your space. I mean, hearing that a 13-year-old's helping out a six year old in something, one that sounds fantastic, just basically building those aspirational mentors and knowing that your aspirations are just there. It's actually the 13-year-old. It's not necessarily someone that you're seeing on TV. I think that's really interesting.

Louise Sauvage [00:09:39] Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, they say the guys, the national guys on TV, I seen them in the Paralympics and things like that. And that is the ultimate, obviously. You know, a lot of my guys come to these able-bodied meets and they see people that they've seen on TV do it and they get excited as well, which is kind of cool. They probably relate to them, but not in the same way. But, you know, we're such a small community. I think it's important that we all share our knowledge and pass it forward and are involved. And I think it's really important for them to feel like they belong as well. It's probably one of the most important things. I mean, most kids in Australia go to their Saturday morning sport or, you know, weekend sport at some stage. And, you know, they can join their local soccer club. They can go and participate. For a lot of kids with disabilities, it's not that simple. It's not that easy. They need specialised equipment or they don't fit in. They can't join in with their brothers and sisters. So for them to come along to their Saturday morning sport is you know, it's important for them to be feel part of that group and know that this is where they belong. They feel comfortable and they can all have a laugh and have new friends and, you know, be comfortable and still have a good time and enjoy their sport and be active and fit and healthy. So it's the same purpose. Yeah, it's a little bit harder sometimes.

Cam Tradell [00:10:52] I think belonging is a great word in that we all want to feel like we belong no matter what the environment is. You said before that coaching is very, very similar. Do people ever come to you for advice or someone who doesn’t have a disability?

Louise Sauvage [00:11:08] To coach someone without a disability? Oh, I don't know how to run. Oh, yeah, but no, I think on a broader spectrum, like I said, coaching is coaching. So where I work, you know, obviously I'm surrounded by another a lot of coaches from different sports and we all learn from each other. And regardless of our sports, regardless of whether it's an able-bodied sport or a sport for athletes with disabilities, it doesn't matter. Coaching is coaching. So I learn lots of things from those coaches and that's how I learn. It doesn't matter whether you're an able-bodied or not, I think that's really relevant. And I've probably learnt a lot from those people and the environment where I where I work more than anything. So, yeah, I think we learn together, you know, from each other. It's great.

Cam Tradell [00:11:55] Do you see that there's that opportunity for people and would there be that opportunity for people to actually come in and coach people with disabilities to improve themselves?

Louise Sauvage [00:12:05] Yeah, absolutely. I think it make you a better coach, like more rounded having to think outside the square, like I said, adaptability. You just learning perhaps you're involved in athletics, but like, it's throwing something, a curveball, which could be, you know, an athlete with a prosthetic leg or an arm. And then you go to coaching a sprinter, but with a difference. And so it does make it I think it's way more interesting and it opens your mind up. And there's not a lot of history that can go back onto a lot of our sports. So you can't go to a book necessarily and look up things. So it makes you think and, you know, some great resources around this country to be able to rely on to help you progress in that way as well. I encourage anyone to come along and experience and get involved and, you know, see what we do and different things. It makes you a better coach. Definitely.

Cam Tradell [00:12:59] I think that's part of the some of the issues that might be here is the barriers to people actually not understanding that and just being fearful of making a mistake. Or what if they slip up? What if they say the wrong thing?

Louise Sauvage [00:13:10] I think people think that a lot. Me personally, I can't speak for all people with disabilities, but I'm definitely of the thing of the you know, I just ask me, you know, no no question is a stupid question. And if it is don't worry I'll probably tell you. But I'm in a nice way. But I think you just ask questions and become involved. You know, you see all the characters that we have, you know, and and how they interact and you know who will welcome you with open arms and yeah. Just come in, ask questions and get involved. Yeah, it's it's a it's a great way to get started and then experience something different.

Cam Tradell [00:13:48] Absolutely. And I think that there's a great opportunity with regards to as you say, it's it can be part of a development phase for people to make them think differently, to help them in whatever path they end up going in their coaching or even in the officiating space where having empathy, understanding setting the environment and then, you know, creating an optimal experience for the people in front of them has to be the ultimate goal for any coach, regardless of who they are coaching or officiating with. Louise, this has been fantastic. A lot to think about, a lot to unpack. And I really appreciate your time with us today.

Louise Sauvage [00:14:24] No worries thank you for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:14:29] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.