Transcript

Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White and I am joining you from Eora country. I am the coaching advisor for the coaching and officiating team at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today we will be discussing creating inclusive and respectful environments in community sport. Much of these learnings will be relevant to coaches regardless of the gender of your participants. We will be discussing inclusion and respect in sport, what it means to be inclusive, and how coaches can enhance their practice to be more inclusive. We are lucky today to welcome Nicole Mulford and Zoe Avner to the podcast. Nicole, known as Muggles in the roller derby community, is the diversity and inclusion officer at Kingston City Rollers. In their paid work, Muggles is a youth worker working with a diverse range of communities, but has a passion for supporting the queer community. Zoe is a lecturer in sport coaching at Deakin University. Her research and teaching interests are athlete and coach learning and ethical inclusive coaching and athlete development practices. Her work is focussed on supporting sporting organisations to foster more ethical and inclusive sporting environments for all participants. To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport, the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Zoe. Nicole, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast who both have a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Welcome.

Zoe Avner [00:01:40] Thanks very much for having me.

Nicole Mugford [00:01:41] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited.

Annabelle White [00:01:44] Inclusion can mean so much to so many different people. Nicole, what does inclusion mean to you?

Nicole Mugford [00:01:50] I think for me, inclusion is about having a sense of belonging and acceptance. But also understanding that inclusion looks different for different people. And so there's a level of respect in being included in the community. But I kind they have to go hand-in-hand. And so, I think for me, it's about how do we celebrate, all people and the gifts and the skills and the talents that they bring, as well as the challenges that they have and, you know, shaping and holding that, as well as holding a sense of, acceptance for, for people.

Annabelle White [00:02:29] Zoe, what does inclusion mean to you?

Zoe Avner [00:02:32] A lot of overlap with Nicole. I think for me, inclusion is moving beyond having differences or challenges tolerated or accommodated, but rather a place front and centre. When designing, learning and sporting environments, I think that's really key. It's an environment where people feel comfortable, they feel safe, they feel valued and supported. So yeah, like Nicole mentioned, I think it starts with different questions around what does an inclusive environment look like in my specific context? What does it mean for my participants and what can we do to make sure that participants feel supported, and comfortable within my specific context?

Annabelle White [00:03:18] Brilliant. Thank you both for sharing. Nicole, in your five years at the club, you've sat in a variety of positions. Official, volunteer, bench manager. You also sit in the role of Diversity and inclusion officer. Can you explain a bit more about that role of diversity and inclusion officer?

Nicole Mugford [00:03:36] Yeah. So a couple of years ago, our, club leadership were wanting to make sure that we really hit the mark when it came to inclusion. And so, they approached me as someone who was, a queer person and, kind of working in that space of kind of social and community in my professional career and said, what do we do? How do we approach that? Can we create a position? And so from there, we created a position, of diversity and inclusion officer. And that, role basically just helps me to oversee making sure we have initiatives that, I guess celebrate and include people, from diverse backgrounds. So not just members of the LGBTQ plus community, but also, looking at cultural diversity and, disability. So we are spending a lot of time at the moment looking through like, what does neurodiversity look like? Within the sporting context and just ensuring that people have a safe space to go to.

Annabelle White [00:04:43] Zoe, Nicole has just walked us through her role at Kingston City role, as much of it revolves around creating an inclusive environment. There are so many elements which go into creating an inclusive environment. Can you walk us through some of those elements?

Zoe Avner [00:04:58] Nicole touched on a number of them, but I think you know, there’s quite a few layers basically to designing inclusive environments. I think perhaps a good starting point to thinking about the structures and cultures of sport, basically, and within our specific context. So I'm mentioning, ensuring that sport is inclusive to diverse populations, perhaps starting with, considerations around structures and facilities. So how accessible facilities, how gender inclusive are various facilities. Will participants feel safe and welcome within the particular club culture. All very clear policies and guidelines in place around discrimination and fostering a more inclusive and, environment free of discrimination. The role of education as well. And we have well educated staff who are knowledgeable around, how to foster a more inclusive environment. So, these are not necessarily, the question is asking this question is no guarantee, so to speak, but I think it's a good place to start.

Annabelle White [00:06:10] You spoke a little bit there about education and education of people within those environments. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of educating coaches to be inclusive in their practice?

Zoe Avner [00:06:21] I think it's really fundamental. I think it's, really important as well to think about how we kind of pitch education and get buy-in from coaches. So really understanding the benefits, the inclusion and having an affirming and inclusive environment can, can bring participants and coaches included.

Annabelle White [00:06:43] Zoe’s just outlined some of the reasons why education for coaches around inclusion is so important in your position. Why is education for coaches around inclusion so important in creating those inclusive environments?

Nicole Mugford [00:06:59] I think it's really important that we, help educate our coaches because, at least in my club, everyone's a volunteer. So everyone kind of lives their busy lives, which they're doing their best, they're raising their families. They're, you know, involved in their local community, working their jobs. And, they, they mean well and they want to do well, but they don't always know how to do that. And so I think it's, about finding ways to help people to know the right things to say and the right things to do. In order to be able to stand alongside people and to, help people to be their best.

Annabelle White [00:07:40] Nicole, in your volunteer role, how do you personally champion?

Nicole Mugford [00:07:43] Inclusion and inclusion is championed differently depending on what that looks like for, communities. And I guess the need of the person for one of my other roles within the club has been, as the wellbeing officer. And so for me, that's meant, I look over our membership and, you know, check in on people, particularly if they're unwell or if things going on in their family. And, and that's given me that, I guess, extra insight into how to support people. And so, we've had members that have said, oh, like I found my thing when I started and came and tried this sport. But my rent just been increased, and, family's really hard, and I need to put my. I'm a single mum trying to put my boys through school, like, so, like, I won't be able to commit. And so kind of trying to find those ways to go at, oh, I can babysit or bring them along and I'll sit with them on the sidelines while you train and, try to find ways that they can be included that might look different or might be a bit inconvenient, but actually in the main, like in the long run, is beneficial for that individual. But the club as a whole, I think that's been something that's been really exciting to see. And for us to do.

Annabelle White [00:09:08] So being adaptable so that people can find a space and can feel safe and included and like they belong, that's wonderful. Nicole, there's a critical role, and a relationship between respect and inclusion. Can you explain in your own words the relationship between respect and inclusion?

Nicole Mugford [00:09:27] I think you can be respectful without being inclusive, but you can't be inclusive without being respectful. And by that I mean that, to be inclusive means you have to be open to, welcoming and embracing and, creating a place of belonging. And I think, I don't think you can do that without holding a level of respect. For the existence of a person or, their situation. You can be respectful of people. By kind of keeping them at a distance.

Annabelle White [00:10:10] So inclusion almost takes it that step further. You can't have, as you say, you can't have inclusion without respect. Because the two go hand in hand. But you can in fact be respectful. But as you say, keep someone at a distance. Yeah, really, really like that description. Zoe, Nicole just spoke a little bit about the diversity of people within her own sporting organisation. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of the diversity of people within sport, in embracing inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:10:42] Yeah, I think like like Nicole mentioned, that's really, really important. You know, often starts at the leadership structure as well. So having, diverse leaders, who can also emulate, promoting inclusion by being good role models and having that availability of different role models and pathways, which participants can recognise themselves on in, is really critical to, I guess, promoting more inclusive sport space as a whole. So it starts with that diversity, especially within the leadership structure as well, and integrating different viewpoints. I think that's really critical.

Annabelle White [00:11:25] And you've alluded to it there, Zoe, but can you talk a little bit more to the importance of lived experience in embracing inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:11:34] So it is a bit of a cliche, but I think it's often said that you can't be what you can't see. And having the availability of, you know, role models, and then able to recognise oneself in, people around us and, and especially for aspiring coaches, we know that having for example, female role models for, for young girls, getting into and pursuing coaching pathways is really critical. So, yeah, I think being able to recognise oneself and see that diversity is key to kind of. Creating opportunities and encouraging people to pursue pathways that they might not have thought about beforehand.

Annabelle White [00:12:19] Nicole, I'll come to you because I can see that you're nodding. Can you talk a little bit to how in your club you've leveraged lived experience to be a more inclusive space for more people?

Nicole Mugford [00:12:30] For us, particularly in the, I guess, the LGBTQ plus space. We've really worked to, leverage the stories of people in helping to. I guess, help people to be educated in how to be good allies. And. It's formed better, a stronger team. I think, for us, because people have each other's back, both on the track in Derby, but also in life.

Annabelle White [00:13:01] Zoe, you have recently begun researching the role of male allyship in sport coaching to allow more inclusive sports experiences for all genders whilst it's in its infancy. Can you explain this work in a bit more detail?

Zoe Avner [00:13:14] Yes. Our current research, focuses on male allyship and specifically on examining, performance and participation coaches understanding of what gender responsive coaching is and how this their understanding shapes their practices and the impact of these practices on their athletes. So we're really interested in the gendered assumptions that underpin, these practices and, how we can kind of unpack some of these, various assumptions and how that then trickles down into, a diversity of practices and how we can promote more gender responsive coaching practices as a result.

Annabelle White [00:13:59] What will be the impact of this research for community coaches?

Zoe Avner [00:14:03] I think it's really important to understanding how coaches currently form their understanding of what gender is and what being gender responsive means. So we can identify some some gaps and perhaps opportunities to improve understanding and improve our practices around gender responsive coaching for the, for the betterment of athletes of all genders.

Nicole Mugford [00:14:29] I think the idea of allyship is, really important in that coaching experience. I like Zoe how you've done that research. Starting that research around male allyship. I think for us at Kingston, we've done a lot of work around what is, being an active ally look like. Within the, I guess, intersections of your life. And so, we've started to, to kind of help people to understand their role in, passing them like at times when they need to, but also, to holding that when they need to as well. And so kind of that difference between, the role of if you're in the minority group. It's tiring to have to defend for yourself all the time. I guess that minority stress that comes with with that. And so what does I live ship looks like? Standing up for, for those people within those intersections. And I think. Yeah. Really helping our coaches to, I guess, embed that into their language as they then go about. Talking to other people and, as they're training their team to kind of say, hey. Light and being the ones that do that corrective languaging or what that looks like.

Zoe Avner [00:15:55] And I think you've hit it spot on. I think it also ties back to your earlier points around the importance of education. And I think for a lot of coaches, there needs to be kind of a starting point and an education piece there, and they're often unsure as to how to be good allies or develop those practices. So I think that's where the education piece is really critical. And research in informing, new practices around allyship is really critical as well.

Annabelle White [00:16:30] Nicole, in creating an environment which is truly inclusive and respectful, coaches must be self-aware in the first instance. Can you talk to the importance of self-awareness in creating inclusive environments?

Nicole Mugford [00:16:43] So I think this comes back to a bit of that allyship and being active in kind of your education and your learning. Being aware of, I guess, your positioning in society, in the team, in the club, and the privilege that you hold, based on your, your own background and story and experience. And then I think around noticing who else you've got around you in, in that space and in that team, and what are their needs? And so just being really aware that, just because you have access to this and you have or something doesn't necessarily mean the people on your team also have that same access. And so, while that might be inclusive for you, it might not be inclusive for somebody else. And I think yeah, just kind of pointing out to people then. The difference is in making sure that we are holding the policies and things that we have at the forefront. And having a guest opportunity for our members to. Offer feedback and offer that. Yeah. Evaluation so that we know where we might be falling short because obviously you can't see everything necessarily. And, you know, you only know what you know. And so yeah, we do. Often in our league we do monthly vibe checks, and so it's just a quick five minute survey where our members say, on a scale of 1 to 10, how you feeling at the moment? Is it related to your sport? Is it related to outside life? Do you want to talk to anyone about it? What can we do better? And it takes some 20s kind of to fill that in. And, gives us a good picture of how people are feeling within the club. And if there's anything we need to do to further support people.

Annabelle White [00:18:44] So you're hitting it from a multitude of angles. You're giving direct feedback to coaches, you're supplying them with education and resources, and then you're also empowering them to find out more about their participants and using that vibe check as you've as you've, explained. Brilliant. Zoe, an understanding of self is critical in becoming aware of how our own personal biases may impact the environments we create. As a coach, how can coaches better understand their own personal biases?

Zoe Avner [00:19:15] I think first of all, it's important to all of us, for that matter, to appreciate that we're not empty vessels. We weren't born and we didn't grow up in a social vacuum. So it's understanding the power of norms and expectations to shape who we are, social norms and expectations. And from that perspective, gender norms and expectations are very powerful norms and have influenced how we think about, and how we relate to others, basically. So, sport is set up in a very binary way. And kind of sometimes thinking outside of that binary can be quite challenging. So, being able to unpick, how these gender norms and expectations have shaped us is really critical, especially when it comes to coaching assets of different genders. So I think the first step to thinking and practising coaching differently and becoming more, more gender aware is perhaps kind of unpacking some of these kind of gender norms and stereotypes.

Annabelle White [00:20:13] You've spoken and you've alluded to it a little bit there in your explanation. But stereotypes do have a big impact on someone's perception of another person. How do stereotypes contribute to creating environments which are not inclusive?

Zoe Avner [00:20:27] I think stereotypes, be they positive or negative are inherently restrictive and should be kind of unpacked and critiqued and addressed. I think they limit, the range of sorts we can have. They limit the range of practices that we can deploy. And they often have very negative and restrictive implications for participants within our context. So, I think it's quite easy sometimes to just apply blanket approaches, but I think as much as possible, it's important to, recentered individual and understand the diversity of participants in front of us.

Nicole Mugford [00:21:05] Just going to say I think as well, like stereotyping negatively means that people feel like they have to hide something and so they don't come to their community able to be free to be their whole self. And so that energy thats spent trying to hide that, I guess that part of you. Takes up time that you could actually be using to get more strategy in your game or, you know, be a bit of a stronger player. And so, when we allow people to be. More open of who they are rather than stereotyping them and kind of, I guess, forcing people to hide aspects of who they are. Then we actually get better athletes and better participants.

Annabelle White [00:21:57] Nicole, when we spoke about having you on the podcast originally, you spoke about how Kingston City Rollers are unapologetically inclusive. What does that mean for us?

Nicole Mugford [00:22:07] That means that we have a set of values that, we won't apologise for, I guess. And, and that means that we may turn down opportunities or not be involved in things because it doesn't, align with how we how we value. So, for instance, as at Owl Lake, we're an open gender league. And so that means we have people of all genders participating. And, you know, we had an opportunity to be. I don't know what the right phrases, but maybe certified or kind of benchmarked within the Women's Roller Derby Association. And we kind of said, well, to do that would put our men and put our, gender diverse people out. They wouldn't be able to participate in that way. And that's not who we are. And that's and so we may not have as many game opportunities now because we're not certified in that way, but actually we're allowing space for everyone to participate. And that's more important to us than to get those opportunities to play.

Annabelle White [00:23:21] So, Nicole, can you tell us a bit more about your personal journey in the sport? How did you end up becoming a volunteer in roller derby?

Nicole Mugford [00:23:29] So I didn't realise roller derby was a real sport. I had seen it in a movie, with it. I think a lot of people have seen that movie, and I just thought it was a movie sport. I don't know what a movie sport is, but I thought it was a movie sport. And it wasn't until someone one day at a festival skated up to me and handed me a flyer, and I was like, oh, this is a real thing. I'm really interested in going along. And I went along because I was looking for community, and a place to belong. I was at a place in my life where I was, going through questions and challenges within my own journey, around my sexuality and my identity. And, when I rocked up to watch a game, I saw myself there. I saw, what I was trying to work out who I was. I saw that in the people that were there, participating. And so for me, I then knew that was the kind of the community I wanted to be a part of.

Annabelle White [00:24:35] What's been the value to you personally, Nicole? Being able to turn up to a sport and see yourself reflected in who was there.

Nicole Mugford [00:24:45] It really gave me the confidence to challenge the ideas that I had about who I was and come to a place of acceptance for myself. And so, I think because of the community I felt like I was able to come out and, able to express myself and. Not feel shame. And. And that was really lovely. And then to be able to be a part of a club that then didn't just kind of accept me and have me on the side, but actually was willing to embrace me so they would work alongside me and get me, you know, extra lessons on the side or to come early to kind of help me to find that place to connect in and belong. And, yeah, they really, I guess, worked hard to. To connect me in in a way and, achieve the goals. And so I think for me now, as someone who's now kind of been a part of the club for five years, I want to now also do the same. And so we kind of just build that culture within us.

Annabelle White [00:25:58] Nicole, your club has consistently been celebrated for creating an inclusive space for people to enjoy sport. What's been the benefit to your club in prioritising inclusion?

Nicole Mugford [00:26:08] Well, you get a trophy number one. That's pretty fun. But I think more than that, obviously more than that is that the league has become known as a place where people can come and be themselves and explore questions. And, you know, we've had members who have wanted to join roller derby, but they weren't sure they were kind of going through a gender identity, crisis or Turning Point. And they weren't sure if they joined. You know, a club, would they be able to play in six months? If they started kind of that journey. And so when they joined, they came to Kingston and they knew that it wouldn't matter if they were male, female, non-binary, non-gender conforming, they would still have a place on the team. And they'd still get training.

Annabelle White [00:27:10] In your role. Can you talk to a little bit more about the benefits the individual might experience when they feel like they're included in sport?

Nicole Mugford [00:27:19] Yeah, I think when they feel included, there's a sense of fun, and a sense of, I guess, achievement and success. They feel like they're thriving. But also they feel, I guess, free from that stress that they have of some of the stereotypes or things that they might get in their workplaces or schools or, other environments. I know for some of our members, they've said that being included in this, in the league, they felt like they, they came knowing who they were. And then because of that, they were actually able to grow into the person that they didn't realise that they wanted to become. And so, you know, people. Felt like they knew more about who they were because they felt included.

Annabelle White [00:28:13] Zoe, Sport has a reputation for, in some cases, being perceived as exclusionary, whether that's true or not true. Some of your recent work as an associate editor for the Journal of Sports Coaching has reflected this need for change. What do we miss out on in sport when we don't prioritise inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:28:34] I think, you know, to to kind of echo and build on our previous responses and I think you and isolate and marginalise whole segments of the population and, hinder opportunities for them to benefit from, many of the kind of joys, the fun, the affirming experiences that can come through sport. So I think it's, it's really essential to move towards, sport spaces and sport practices that do prioritise inclusion. First and foremost.

Nicole Mugford [00:29:08] And I think, when people are excluded. There's is that sense of people like people's health are impacted. People don't have that sense of social belonging and that mental health that we kind of have talked about, that are and are improvements of being a part of those communities. And so there are whole sections and minority groups then who, don't have the benefits of what that would look like if they were excluded from those communities.

Speaker 1 [00:29:40] Thank you, Zoe and Nicole, both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information tonight. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the Aces Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is out of a white and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your team-mates, fellow coaches and officials and friends. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:35] Today, we're joined by one of Australia's premier officials, Australian football referee Kate Jacewicz. Kate's refereeing journey commenced by chance one day when she was asked to pick up the whistle for a match that her brother was playing in. Prior to that event, Kate had been an avid football player. Since making her way into officiating, Kate has refereed at the highest levels, including Australia's W-League, the A-League, the FIFA World Cup and Olympics. Kate, thanks for joining us today.

Kate Jacewicz [00:01:05] Thank you for having me, Cam.

Cam Tradell [00:01:06] Can you just give us a bit of insight to what sports did you play, and then how did this journey start?

Kate Jacewicz [00:01:11] Well, I originally am from the Gold Coast in Queensland, and I was a swimmer to start with. My mum, obviously, being in Queensland wanted us to learn to swim and I had two young male friends, like family friends, and they both played football and anything that they did, I wanted to do, so I pestered mum to join a football team, the local football team, which is Mudgeeraba junior soccer club. That was my club for 15 or so years, and I remember my first game was for my brother, actually my younger brother, who's little miniroos roo ball referee never showed up at an away club and mum was like, "Oh Kate's here she can do it". So I got to run around for my first game, um, you know unpaid that type of thing because I was at another club, but I really, really loved it and I loved football, and I guess I loved reflecting back on it now, I guess what I really loved about it was the analytics of the game of football and, you know, being the decision making and the thinking around football like me as a 13 year old girl didn't understand that. But you know, retrospectively, now I can see what drew me to it and just remembering my thoughts around, you know, just being involved, seeing the game unfold around me, the emotions, you know, the excitement of the kids, you know, a game of football is like a really good TV drama, right? It's got everything and you get to experience the highs and lows of both teams. Yeah, that's me as a 30 something year old now being able to reflect on it, but as a 13-year-old kid, I just loved the game and loved being involved in it. So, mum took me to my first like level, like entry level referee course. She did it with me, and from there I just refereed every Saturday at my junior club. I was still playing at the time, so I refereed, I played, I coached until a certain point where, you know, people in football were all starting to make a name for myself, though, like, you know, you have to give up something. And I’m like "oh, I don't really want to". I definitely wasn't going to give up playing because that's my first love. And so, I gave up coaching to pursue refereeing, and that's when I got invited to state titles in Queensland. And then I got invited on to national titles and just the career snowballed from there.

Cam Tradell [00:03:51] That's a cool story. And you say you went from player, I'm guessing on Saturday and refereeing on Sunday, sort of thing. Is that right?

Kate Jacewicz [00:04:00] Yeah. Well, on the Gold Coast, I was playing in the women's competition on a Monday night, so the girls in women's played Monday nights while still playing with the boys up until I was 17 years of age. So, we got to play Friday nights and then Saturday mornings was my, Saturday and Sundays was when I was able to whistle in the junior competitions and then be an assistant referee in the in the men's senior competitions until I worked my way up until when I whistled in the senior men's competitions.

Cam Tradell [00:04:27] It's always an interesting mix, isn't it? Between you say your true love's playing and yet refereeing clearly is a love, but those two things sometimes don't go hand in hand is playing and refereeing. How do you find the importance of you understanding the game really well from the player's perspective and how that assists or helps your refereeing?

Kate Jacewicz [00:04:46] Yeah, I think, you know, I'm not saying that every referee needs to play the game, but I think it serves, you know, as an advantageous skill, I guess, you know, understanding the emotions of a player, the frustrations of a player, the ins and outs of the game, being a player and a player for so long, who played in the middle of the field, so the midfield. But the referee’s movement is quite similar as well to a midfielder. So you're able to you can read the play, you know, when the ball's going to go long, you know when there's a press you need to press, you know, when it generally nine times out of 10, when there's going to be a miss kick because just the way the player is facing, there is no way they're going to be able to play the ball where they want to play, so it certainly gives you a lot of insight into the into the game of football and into players behaviour, but also the way that they play the game. So, I'm really, really grateful that I'm able to bring those skills that I learnt as a player transfer into the skills, as a as a referee.

Cam Tradell [00:05:59] It's interesting you're talking about the emotions, and you talk about the highs and the lows when you hit the lows, how do you deal with that? Is it different from community to performance to how you would deal with it? Or is it the same process or how do you deal with it?

Kate Jacewicz [00:06:13] Certainly, I would say there is minute differences in in the way subtle differences that I would speak with a community player or a lower-level player versus, you know, the top players in the world, you know, playing for the national teams. But I think now I'm starting to find my feet at an international level, and my personality is starting to come out, so I'm very much a referee that likes to use my personality and I like to use a bit of humour, I like to build connections with players on the field. I feel that you know... when I mean build a connection, It's more like... I respect them. I respect them on a professional level, and I would never talk down to them. But certainly, if they're trying to talk down to me, I would then put them in their place and be like, "Hang on a minute, like, your behaviour or your tone right now is completely unacceptable or inappropriate would you speak this way to someone serving you coffee" or something like this? And you know, try to remind them of the human side of the referee. I very much take this approach in community football, or you know back in Australia, you know, trying to connect with players on a on a human level. But again, it's the same... I take the same approach and that is building the respect from a very simple level, I guess.

Cam Tradell [00:07:43] That rapport building can, I guess, help both the referee as well as the players to understand the nuances in the way that you let a game flow. Do you try to set the tone of the game, or do you let the players sort of set the tone of the game of, you know, the pace, the ferocity, or how do you sort of navigate through what sort of game is going to unfold in front of you?

Kate Jacewicz [00:08:04] Yeah, that's a good question. I 100 percent, let the players do that. It's their game. I'm just a part of it. And you know, it's, I don't want to impact negatively or influence the game any more than I need to. I'm there when I when I need to be and I'm not there when I don't need to be. I'm very much I work in the background. But in saying that, you know, when I'm communicating on a field and I'm communicating with my team, especially one of the techniques I try to use is I kind of speak like I'm speaking to everyone around me, but I'm actually directing the information to my team and being like, right, I'm looking here. Make sure you get the other, the reverse angle, like I'm going to be looking at the aerial challenge between these two players. And then those two players, when I say their names, they look at me and are like "right, she knows exactly what... they know exactly what I'm looking at and what I'm directing my team to be looking at as well. Like, alright, I'm expecting possible hands in the aerial challenge, like, you know, and then players throwing elbows and that type of thing. So, I do it in a way where I, yes, I am directing the game, but you know, it's almost like maximum benefit, minimal interference, I’ve just stolen that from, you know, VAR philosophy. But that's the way I try to operate as a as a referee as well. It's their game. I'm a part of it, but I'm certainly going to try to facilitate this match to the best of my ability so we can maximise the most out of this game

Cam Tradell [00:09:46] At the community level, a lot of the time there are people who are good enough to stick their hand in the air to help you on the side, how do you communicate to those people and make them feel like one -they're a part of what you're doing, but that they belong and they're important. You got any methods that you use?

Kate Jacewicz [00:10:02] Now as, I guess, an established referee. I do it this way back when, you know, 15, 10, 15 years ago, I probably didn't. Maybe I didn't have the confidence or the experience. But one thing that I would certainly suggest for you to try is communicate the same way you would communicate with a headset on. And I just amplify my voice the same way that we can talk to our team with you know the communication system. I still look at my team if I'm if I'm talking to them as well so we can use gestures and or body language facial gestures, and they can see that I'm looking at them. I mean, I remember distinctly one time the assistant referee couldn't hear me, but I could hear them, so then I was doing some gestures back to them to be like right " this is what I'm saying", type thing to acknowledge that. But in terms of the... like you said, the advice, I would amplify my voice and I would the same way I'd want the players around me to hear it. I just put what I want to communicate out into the world so that my assistant referees would hear me as well. Because, yeah, we're a part of the game and communication is vital, right? So, I would say that that's how I'd involve my team.

Cam Tradell [00:11:26] So it's like, you're talking to yourself, but talking out loud and talking to everyone. But is it what is actually going on in your mind? You just basically voicing what's happening in your head the whole time? So, does it sometimes come out like a little bit of commentating?

Kate Jacewicz [00:11:40] Yeah, we do have to describe what we see. And I've been fortunate enough, that's my style of refereeing anyway. So, the change hasn't really been too significant for me. If a player asked me, like, you know, what was that for? I'd be like, well, you know, it was, it was this for this, and they're like Oh, that's what you saw. I'm like, I'm just telling you what I see. I'm only calling what I'm seeing. I'm not a referee that would be like, you know. I'm not one that like kind of commentates and coaches the players like, don’t do this, don't do that, don't do this. And there are some referees that will, yeah, like it's almost like they're a coach out there being like, look easy, easy, hands down, hands down, like this type of thing. You know, players are players they'll either listen to you or they won’t. That's their choice. But you know, in terms of what information is critical that or like is, you know, advantageous, I guess, or is helpful. Yeah, that's the type of information that I like to provide. So, it almost is in a way, I am talking out loud, but it's information that is critical to, I guess, the management of the match.

Cam Tradell [00:12:53] Now that you're where you're at or whether you're a great community coach, do you have people that you call on to sort of ask advice or to give you feedback and so on? So, two parts, is, who's helped you get to where you are and then when you are refereeing at whatever level, have you got groups that you sort of lean on to ensure that you're doing a good job and to give you honest feedback?

Kate Jacewicz [00:13:16] Yeah. Well, in the beginning, a few names pop into my head. One is Allan Kibler, who was the referee’s manager in Queensland. He, I guess, found me at that state titles that I spoke to you about earlier. And then Barry Sutch is another one who is another Queensland referee manager and a few others that I'd like to kind of make note of and that is Gary Power, Jenny Bray, Steve Fenech all within the refereeing community down in New South Wales. And I mean, when I was coming through as a teenager and in my early 20s, I didn't really know the world of refereeing. And these are the people that, you know, lit the fire and said that, you know, the world is out there like it's the world game. You can travel to all these exotic destinations, whistling football all over the world. And, but I didn't really know what that meant until like, now I've lived the journey and I can see that I've got firsthand experience in that. So, it's nice that like I said, look back retrospectively and see what they were talking about and how it's come to life or come to fruition. And now ah... The people that I talk to the most are probably my peers, and I'm fortunate enough that I'm a FIFA referee and I'm on the World Cup candidate program and I've got access to, you know, some of the best referees from all over the world and refereeing at an elite level is quite a personal, a little bit isolating, but also it's a really unique experience that not a lot of people have that lived experience with. And what I mean by that is it's such an intricate, I guess, pathway and lived experience like what you... the emotions that you feel, the learnings that you take, the learnings that you not only take professionally but also personally. We all experience in some way shape or form very similar experiences, but are slightly different because we're all different people, but, and also from different cultures and different countries as well. So, I'm under no illusion that my journey is far more privileged than that, say someone coming from another country. But yeah, we all share this unique experience together and we have that like personal, firsthand insight into what it feels like to be an elite referee. So, I would say they're my peers that I've met along the way.

Cam Tradell [00:16:12] It's really interesting that you talk about, it's the same experience because once you're on the pitch, it's the same experience. However, where they've come from is the diversity that they bring. Does that help with regards to providing perspective on different ways that you can manage games, and have they helped you sort of hone your skills?

Kate Jacewicz [00:16:32] Oh, absolutely. So, for example, I was lucky enough to meet my hero in person, and that was Bibiana Steinhaus from Germany. You know, one of the first females in the world to get to the top in that in men's professional football. And I, you know, was totally, you know, fangirling at this point. But she is so humble and so kind that, you know, she didn't really care about that, and she just wanted to help. So, and she helped in her own way like I would never had the courage to be like, Hey, Bibi, you know, can you help me do this? It'd be like, we just be sitting together watching a game of football, and she'd be like, look, we could do this, this and this. We tried doing this this way, and you know, it'll work out much better for you. And I'm like, oh, wow, look, I'd never thought of it that way. So, yeah, definitely... Refereeing is about experience and learning from one another, and learning from others are either really, really good decisions, or you know others mistakes as well and sharing that insight and that's how we grow as individuals, that's how we grow the profession and that's how we grow the game. So yeah, that was, was a really cool experience and now I can, you know, just give her a text if I ever want some other little tips and advice.

Cam Tradell [00:18:10] It's amazing, isn't it, that you've got that, and if you think about your experience there the next generation coming through for you, the ones that are starting to develop here in Australia or elsewhere in the world, are you starting to find that they're starting to tap into you and your knowledge? Are you starting to have a bit more of a transitional point where you're mentoring others?

Kate Jacewicz [00:18:28] Yeah, I think so. And you know, it's almost like you don't realise it until you're there, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm in the process of, you know, the baton's been passed to me, but I'm probably the last to know and what I'm thinking just I’m entering into, you know, I guess, a general discussion or chit chat or conversation with another referee that I'm thinking is my peer actually turns around to be, you know, I'm I almost turn out to be that Bibiana Steinhaus for that young Kate Jack. And yeah, sometimes, I wish I kind of knew in the moment, I’m like, "Oh, maybe I should have taken that more seriously" or, you know, maybe, maybe I need to come up with some, you know, more meaningful stories for them or advice for them. But no, yeah, it's another learning experience for me, it's part of the journey. And, you know, I'm embracing that and really enjoying learning how to impart my knowledge in different ways to, like you said, the next gen.

Cam Tradell [00:19:38] It's interesting because sport changes so quickly. So, what sport looked like 20 years ago is very different now. So, I'm guessing that knowledge transfer becomes crucial as you're still an active referee, bringing through the next group who in 2032 with Olympic Games in Brisbane, that skill and knowledge transfer becomes key. What do you see for Australian referees in football? Is it an exciting future? Do you see good changes, or do you think we're going to need to do more work to develop high quality officials?

Kate Jacewicz [00:20:11] Yeah, that's an interesting question actually. Well, as you know, there's the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand as well, coming up and what Australia has been good at previously is producing World Cup officials on limited resources. Yeah, like I mean, just to name a few we've got, Tammy Ogston, Jackie Hereford was an option, Allyson Flynn and Sarah Ho, not to mention then Mark Shields, Ben Williams and now Chris Beath. And they’re, you know, world class officials and, I would have to say, coming through the system, the resourcing and development of referees hasn't probably been where it could have been to possibly produce double or triple the amount of the names that I just that I just said. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been, but in terms of formalising and streamlining the development, I really believe that if we want the game to grow in Australia, that it needs to be a whole game approach and firstly, the recognition that match officials as a whole is ultimately almost like your third national team. And you know, we're a part of the national competitions, whether people like it or not, we're part of the game whether people like it or not. And if you want the game to grow and develop and reach its highest limits, you need the match official’s skills and abilities to match that as well, to grow with the game. If we're left behind, when you know people are going to be standing there going well, that same narrative and rhetoric of match officials are rubbish or this referee's decision cost the game, it's like, well actually can we, you know, actually look at what we've done for match officials in this country, and have we done enough for them? So, what I'd really like to see is building the referee program for football to be more in line with you know high performance in football as well, because referees and assistant referees we're athletes to, we're elite athletes as well, and we're competing on the world stage, the same as the Socceroos and the Matildas. And while it's going to take a while, I understand that with Sporting organisations now I work for one, I understand the, you know, the things that we have to do to build that, especially on a budget. I really do believe that that will take refereeing or officiating to the next level in Australia.

Cam Tradell [00:23:16] Yeah, that's fantastic. And let's face it, without officials, we don't have sport. Kate, I really appreciate your time this afternoon and thank you so much for joining us.

Cam Tradell [00:23:33] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I’m the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, I'm pleased to be joined by Ben Sutton, a football coach and former Pararoos player who played at the 2019 World Cup in Spain. Ben heads up the Paraoos Development Centre, which provides football development training to children and adults with cerebral palsy and acquired brain injuries. Ben has a passion for change and equality, and he got into coaching to create opportunities for children with cerebral palsy to play football. Ben, very pleased to speak with you, thanks for joining us.

Benny Sutton [00:01:04] Thank you very much.

Cam Tradell [00:01:06] Benny, I'm really interested in your journey. You've obviously done quite a lot in the game and played a lot of roles. I'm really interested in where did you start? What was your first experience in playing and who was really that person that supported you or gave you the love for the game?

Benny Sutton [00:01:23] I started when I was like four so that's when I decided to do it. And then the person who gave me the love for the game, was probably my father, because he was my first ever coach, and I remember one of the first ever memories that I have of playing, is of me in goal, then I got hit in the face with the ball. I saved it, but the ref and my dad counted that as a goal, and I was like, Oh no. But for all and all that's really helped with my cerebral palsy and, it kind of helped with all my balance and doing stuff that I... without even knowing, just going, and helping like balance there's movement, there's, like, also playing. It made me relationships I would've never had.

Cam Tradell [00:02:19] Yeah, that's interesting, so you found that as you were playing more and more, that the sport was actually helping you grow other, you know, physical attributes that you wouldn't have otherwise had?

Benny Sutton [00:02:31] Yep!

Cam Tradell [00:02:31] Yeah, that's great. And you're talking about the social, can you tell me a little bit about that. How does the social, do you remember early social interactions in sport?

Benny Sutton [00:02:39] My whole under-6s and under 7s teams were my school friends. And when we were in Under 6s, we lost every single game, except for one... And in under 7s, somehow, with that same team, we were undefeated a whole entire year, and I don't know how that happened, but it happened. And then we were in...., I was like 12, when I came into the Cerebral Palsy program and that changed my life forever, because when I brought that up until I went into Cerebral Palsy Alliance until I was about 7, and then I didn't really have that cerebral palsy, contacts centre or any friends, with the severity, so I couldn't really connect with anyone. So, but when I got there, it changed my whole life. I got to meet people from all parts - teachers, people in finance, people my age, so we got to talk about everything and now some of them are my team mates now. Most of them are my role models, even now being an older one in the program now, even the younger ones are my role models, and I think that if I can help you and that makes me so much better.

Cam Tradell [00:04:14] That's a great insight to the way that sports really embedded not just connections and friendships, but how to help support and grow people. And I'm wondering, you said your father was your first coach. Do you remember what made him a good coach for you?

Benny Sutton [00:04:29] He was patient. He didn't care if we did well, he was like even if you did a mistake he did not care. He knew that every time we were going to do something, we would get better and not to get frustrated. That's one of the main things, is I see coaches nowadays get so frustrated at kids going, "Oh my god, why can't you do this?" But I learnt from my dad and my mum that to be patient, and that they will get this eventually, it will take time, everything takes time and practice. If they want to get better, they will practice, so yeah.

Cam Tradell [00:05:14] So it's about creating that positive environment?

Benny Sutton [00:05:17] On field, I’m a very negative person, like to myself, I think I should be at this level at the highest level possible, and I should not make mistakes, because I'm representing my country and I should not do it, but that is the one mindset to have. But as a coach, I am the complete opposite. I'm going everything's fine, everything's positive... "Let's go", "let's do it again, don't be like me, be the best you can be".

Cam Tradell [00:05:51] I love that, Benny. And is it true, Benny, that your very first team you were involved in was more interested in holding hands than actually playing the sport?

Benny Sutton [00:05:59] Yes. So, my under six team we weren't really the best at football. We were more just all school friends, but we were all holding hands and that's where the patience from my dad, I applaud him for that. I would have been, what are you doing? why are you doing this? But he was like, Nah. But then he realised that, so he didn't put us together. Even so, we couldn’t hold hands. And I think that's where, when I went to Under 7s, that's why we did so well. I was patient and then we just went. We actually started to enjoy the team and went down, and we went home with our friends, like our closest friends, that we were holding hands with the year before you before we went "OK let's play now.”.

Cam Tradell [00:06:55] Clearly, that was a really positive experience for you because you stayed in the sport ever since. And you then have started to make representative teams. Can you tell us about when you first made the representative teams and what was the atmosphere? What was it like with your new coaches where you're coming into performance coaching? What was that like?

Benny Sutton [00:07:13] It was very interesting because I actually never had a proper, proper coach until I went into the reps’ teams. So, I always had my dad or schoolteacher or science teacher or whoever it was that was like, OK, let's do this. So, when I hit 12, I went into the New South Wales Cerebral Palsy program, but I didn't actually make the team until I was 17, so in 2010, where we went to Melbourne for the National Championship. And that's where the spirit of that helped me so much like just learning off. I had been with NSW players for five years, so I already knew them. But meeting the Victorians, the Western Australians, the South Australians, and everyone else turned out okay. That's where I need to be. And but the experience they gave me it wasn't all about football. It was about being a good person and like Football's a team sport. So how can I, how can I get from a team sport even into my work? How can I be a better person here and my work, and be a team player? And then in 2017... and in 2016, I got the call up for the national team and that's a whole different level. I thought NSW's camps were hard, and it went up a notch. So, in January 2017, I trained my butt off for like four weeks, and just went into the February camp and I was like "Oh my God!" "ok", apparently, I did well, which wasn't too bad, and then funnily enough, I got my first call up that year and I cried all the way home and then I told all my family. Mum actually organised a party without me knowing, like, at my house that even if I got dropped, she was like oh, everyone, I was like OK, so I went to that actually had 11 people from my family fly over to Argentina to watch me actually play. Which in CP Football we don't get many people. Now we're starting too, but in that time, that was unheard of. And like all the coaching staff loved it. I was like "oh my God, this is awesome" And then, yeah, but the levels of coaches now I have, so much better. So, we are allowed to go into Northwest Spirit, and we've been training with them for about three to four years. And having training with the Imperial Under 6 team and while all round helped us so much because we got faster and strong. And we have to react to it, and we thought that after I get behind them. So, we have to now even train harder.

Cam Tradell [00:11:00] So who were you playing for in Argentina the first time, and then who did you play against?

Benny Sutton [00:11:06] So we went to Argentina, we were playing for the Pararoos We played against the US, Ukraine, Portugal, Japan, Argentina, funny enough, and ... Northern Ireland.

Cam Tradell [00:11:29] Right! That's an incredible experience.

Benny Sutton [00:11:33] I would have never had gone to South America if it weren't for football.

Cam Tradell [00:11:37] Incredible. I also want to touch back on something you said before, and I think this is key and it's the impact that a coach can make if they make it more than about sport. I like what you said is that it wasn't just being about a good sportsperson, it's about being a good person. Can you tell me a little bit about what that means? What sort of things did you do to identify what you could do to be a better person?

Benny Sutton [00:12:01] I know its cliché, but it's treat the way you want to be treated. So, it was like, "OK if I say this to someone, do I want them to say it to me?" No. And how do I get the best out of my skill set to help the team, so at North Sydney, where I used to work, I basically went, OK, I'm very, I hate the shed being untidy and that was me. I was like OK, my job there, ok let's clean the shed. So maybe once every three weeks, I was like OK, this is my job, I can help the team if I can make someone's life a bit easier, I’ll do it. and that's where I kind of went, OK, like, I've done two and a half hours on Sunday, right? Anyway, clean the whole entire shed and then that make's someone else’s life better, and my life easier as well, so I can go bang, bang, bang, so everything works. And then someone else would do that for me and then we all do it for each other. And that the connection that I found at North Sydney, I always only ever had one job. Now I have two. But, at North Sydney, the culture there was so good, we all helped each other, and that's why we were all still so close with each other. Even if someone left, we would still contact them and invite them to everything that we would do.

Cam Tradell [00:13:46] That's a fantastic culture and I must admit, I've lived a little bit of it, and I'm interested in your coaching now, and I love the fact you say that you're a different coach than you are a player. I really like that is the fact that you are hard on yourself, but you want to create those positive environments for the for the new breed coming through. Can you tell us a little bit about what excites you about coaching the new breed? Who are they? What do you do for them?

Benny Sutton [00:14:12] So the new breed, I've actually tried to develop the Pararoos Development Centre, where basically the next generation to come through and take my spot and take all the spots of the current national team. But to have, basically because I didn't have that opportunity when I was younger and I was like, I want that. I want what I had, and I wanted to give it to them. And it’s all about, can I not Impact, but can I change something in them, to make them love to the sport? If I can make... it’s all about loving something, if you love something, you will continue to do it until you are 75 or however how old you are. But yeah, but as you know at North Sydney, we have a guy who's 75 and still playing because he loved the sport. I want that, I want to try and make them, the Under 10s go up and be him and play at 75. I want them playing some of the teams and they can play with me. But yeah, it’s all about just making sure one: They don't quit the sport or if they do, how can I help outside of that as well? How can I make sure that next time I don't make a mistake? For me, it's not everything, but it also impacts me. The way I make sure I've done my job correctly is at trials the next year, if everyone wants to come back then I’ve done my job. If one person doesn’t, I haven't done my job correctly.

Cam Tradell [00:16:14] Geez, you are hard on yourself, Benny.

Benny Sutton [00:16:16] I am. But you always have to be positive no matter what happens, even if they do the worst mistake of their life, put a positive spin on it. If they pass it across goal, and the other team intercepts and scores, then, that's fine. I'd say OK "what can you do different?" how can you do it differently? And then the next time, if they keep doing it, then you go OK, how can we do it differently? And then they'll think, they'll go "Oh I can play on the Goalkeeper, or I can play someone else" and you go, OK,

Cam Tradell [00:16:59] As long as they're learning, I guess, Benny, is that if the mistake is a learning opportunity, then it's not a lost opportunity. It sounds key and quarter to everything you do. The enjoyment factor must be high, too, like if you're putting the benchmark of everyone that's here this year needs to be here next year. You must really drive fun and engagement as being key drivers of your sessions.

Benny Sutton [00:17:22] Yeah. And like what I learnt from everyone I talked with and coached against and even played under was, it is all about fun. If it’s like I found that especially with my under 9 girls this year that I found the one game that they all loved - it was bullrush, they all loved bullrush, and I like perfect. I found a game, that I was like, if you do well lets go do bull rush then, and I'll tease it for like five minutes, and then they will all remember, they'd go "Ben, let’s play bull rush, let's play bull rush" and then I'm like OK play bull rush for five minutes, changes the whole day, and then they all switch on and focus and I can just go once I visit.

Cam Tradell [00:18:15] It's interesting because you've got a unique skill there where you're actually playing to their motivations, in your coaching, to the motivations of the athletes or the participants in your team to ensure that they're not just learning how to play the sport, they're not just learning how to be part of a team, they're also learning that they've got some say over what happens in your session. And I think that's great that buy in that you get is that a sort of strategy of yours?

Benny Sutton [00:18:43] Yes. Master strategy of mine. Because I find that one, even when you learn to play, everyone wanted too, and if I could, I would just want to play games the whole time. But as a player, I would be like "Can we play? because that was so much fun. And then now as a coach I can go, "OK let’s play", but then I can add some rules into it so it's kind of like you're learning more about learning and all of that cognitive learning and going, OK, can I have fun? But also, oh, okay, I'm doing this well, and then you point out what we did well, and then you point out that one thing that they didn't do well and then we go from there.

Cam Tradell [00:19:30] So creating constraints on, on what you what you're providing to people in a fun way, highlighting all the positives. And then let's work on the one thing that you want to get better at. Is that planned before the session? Or do you wait to see what's in front of you and then make decisions as you're coaching, which is real coaching right?

Benny Sutton [00:19:53] A bit of both. I try to plan what I'm going to do, but if that doesn't work, you always have to adapt. Even like the size of a session, if it’s too big and it’s too easy for them, you have to make it smaller but even if anything doesn't work, you cut them into a team and go Okay, I'll just change the roles off the top of my head and then that would be that.

Cam Tradell [00:20:22] Your adaptability there, I like that is the fact that you create the constraint based on what you're seeing, but you wait to see what you see from your players and what they can do, what they can't do and what they need to do. And then you adapt your session to get the best outcome from the players. And then you add in another layer, if we get all this work done, we can also play the game you want to play.

Benny Sutton [00:20:46] Yeah, but it also, everyone has different situations as well. Like I might have a bad day at work. And then I go to training and sometimes I don't want to be there. But it’s the same with kids, they might have a bad day at school, something might have happened at school. Something might have happened at home that we might not know about. And then you find out, and then you go "OK, let's make it more fun, let's make it more fun now, let’s make it easier," and they go OK, cool. And then if you have more than one session, you can go OK, let’s make that day harder. Let's make this one more fun.

Cam Tradell [00:21:30] Benny, I really like that because one that's how you intrinsically motivate people to love sport is that it becomes what it's designed to do. And that is, yes, be competitive. But two, fun to turn up and engage in, we've grabbed a lot to learn from you today Benny, that was fantastic. Really appreciate you joining us this afternoon. It's an incredible insight for us all to take away. Thanks so much for your time mate.

Benny Sutton [00:21:56] Thank you very much for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:22:00] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cameron Tradell [00:00:07] Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell, and I am the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cameron Tradell [00:00:34] Today, I'm pleased to be joined by two individuals with a truly unique story to tell. Mel Perrine, who is a B2 classified, visually impaired para-alpine snow sport athlete, and Bobbi Kelly, who has been Mel's site guide since 2019 and a coach at her local club in Perisher. Mel and Bobbi have a great partnership that saw Mel win a gold and silver medal at the women's super-combined, visually impaired 2019 World Para Alpine Skiing Championships. Both are hoping Mel will make it to a fourth Winter Paralympic Games in Beijing in 2022. Mel and Bobbi welcome and thanks for joining us. I want to take you back to the beginning, Mel, I'm really keen to know where did it all start? Where did your love for racing come from and who got you in, who got you hooked and what were your motivations?

Mel Perrine [00:01:30] I guess my love of racing originally came from a development ski camp that I went on after I finished high school. I didn't want to go into uni straight away, and I just wanted to learn more about skiing. I think at that point in time, I was just a recreational athlete, so I went over to Canada for two months and I had a development coach over there who basically showed me the ropes in ski racing, gave me a bunch of technical and tactical information, and I just fell in love with the highly competitive nature of it. I've always been an athlete and it was just something that felt super natural to me. I love speed, I love competition and skiing and always been a massive part of my life all through my teen years. And this was just it was like an avenue to a way that I could continue exploring that. And I just loved it from the first from the first time I was in a racecourse, it was just awesome. I loved every second of it came back to Australia, eventually I went away to uni and then I think in 2009, after another year at the development camp, the same one, I was put in touch with the Australian head coach. He watched me ski and then invited me to join the national team.

Cameron Tradell [00:02:45] Do you remember the environment, do you remember what traits those coaches had back on the day, how they created the right environment for you?

Mel Perrine [00:02:52] I think the great thing about that development camp was it was everybody was a development athlete. So, the information about ski racing and about technical ability and what we needed to work on from ski tuning, boot, like everything was spoon fed to us in a really clear and direct way. Like we knew exactly what was going on, and also the coach was super supportive of our journeys and that the fact that some of us didn't know as much as each other and he was so approachable and really open to that sort of level of communication and then moving into the national team, that early coaching was a little bit different, but it was still recognised that I was a young athlete and so things were kind of given to me at kind of a little bit of a different level than a lot of the other athletes. But again, it was a massive supportive environment from the coaches that were really pushing me to learn that because they actually cared about my development as an athlete and the fact that they wanted to be to be safe and perform really well on a ski hill. And I think that really helped me stay in the sport as a young athlete.

Cameron Tradell [00:03:59] You've got a unique relationship, especially with Bobbi, who joins us as well. And Bobbi, you're a coach in your own right. You work as the guide for Mel on the slopes and in performance. How did you get into this role? What was your entry into being drawn to play in this role?

Bobbi Kelly [00:04:18] I grew up skiing in Perisher, so both my parents worked for the ski resort that allowed me and my siblings to grow up skiing and having fun along the mountain. That led me to start ski racing myself. I competed till I was around 19/20, and because I love the sport so much, I just started coaching and just at a local club and a good friend of mine, Christian Geiger, who was Mel's old guide and coach for the team, asked me a couple times to guide Mel. However, I wasn't really...  It wasn't the right timing for me because I was focusing so much on my coaching. But after the Pyeongchang Games, I decided it was a good time for me to start skiing with Mel and I've been skiing with Mel and coaching part time ever since.

Cameron Tradell [00:05:08] The relationship that you've got in the way that you compete together is quite unique. You seem in sync. You seem very, very connected. Your communication is incredible, and I guess it's got to be knowing the nature of the sport. I'm keen to understand potentially, Mel, where did that start from? How did you start to build the relationship with Bobbi so that you could start to get so in tune with each other and understand how best to work together?

Mel Perrine [00:05:34] I think Bobbi and I really got along quite well right from the start, actually.  Bobs was a little bit nervous the first time we met, the first time she skated in front of me to the point where I think I was back in in ski school as a 13-year-old. I know we quickly... it was really, it was a very open conversation, very quickly about what I could and couldn't do. And I think that it's kind of set the tone for our entire ski partnership where we're both incredibly open. We're both incredibly honest with each other all the time. And just outside of skiing, like, we found out pretty quickly that we were, you know, we're on the same wavelength with a lot of things, but I think our core values are very similar. So, we laugh a lot together. We have a lot of fun together off the mountain. You know, we're always chatting even when it's not ski season. So, I think the fact that we get on and that we share those core values and we set the tone right from the start that like open communication was going to be our thing. That pretty much kick started an awesome partnership, and we've just built on that the longer we spent together.

Cameron Tradell [00:06:45] Bobbi, from your perspective, the role that you play is guide. But is there much coaching that goes on between the two of you on how you can both work together? So, what's the feedback mechanism that you give to each other to optimise what you're doing? So, you can both play the role that you're playing so you can be as fast as you can in competition?

Bobbi Kelly [00:07:03] So obviously, we have the coach’s feedback, however we do talk a lot, obviously all the time to each other, we're always giving each other feedback, always learning off each other. Yeah, it's just constant chatting between each other, talking, trying to figure out things ourselves a lot of the time. Like, obviously, the coaches can't hear what we're saying all the time. So, it's just that constant feedback; trying what works and what doesn't work. And, we just started journaling, sometimes writing what works for us and what doesn't. So, we just keep it as consistent as possible.

Cameron Tradell [00:07:38] When you talk about the coaches that come over the top, you've got these problems that you're trying to solve and the problem can be, we want to learn how to communicate better, we want to learn and how we can get our technique in sync around certain areas. What are some of the safe environments that you create with other coaches to then problem solve with you? What does that look like and who tends to facilitate that?

Bobbi Kelly [00:08:01] I think it's a bit of both. We're very lucky and fortunate in the way in the sense that we have a very good relationship with our coaches where we're both very open with each other and sometimes the coaches will bring something up that we need to work on. Or sometimes it's the other way around, and we're happy to sometimes say, "Oh no we think differently”, and sometimes they may say the same. It's a lot of problem-solving like Mel said and it does come from not just the coaches and us. It can sometimes come from the athlete. We have family video sessions where we sit with the whole team, and we discuss each other's skiing and brainstorm together. So, it's a very like we're all learning together. We're trying to figure out something together, more so than just one side.

Cameron Tradell [00:08:47] How does that work for you, Mel? When you've got these people, all problem solving together with you and then you're optimising, is there a feedback loop when you do come up with a plan and then you go back to the group to say, we try these five things that we sort of agreed on didn't quite work for us, or these three things worked really well. Can you think of an example where that's come to life for you?

Mel Perrine [00:09:10] A lot of our problem solving is done not only in that the athlete-to-athlete kind of communications space, but also the athlete to coach communications space and a lot of the feedback loop that you just described in terms of communicating back as to what worked and what didn't, I think, happens differently for both of those groups. So, with our coaches, it's more of a formal after every run or after every two to three runs. But it's like, "listen, we try that stuff that we talked about in video, this worked and that didn't work". And then we also discuss the language that we use as well. So, you know, a coach might give a cue to me about a certain body position or what like what in skiing. A specific example was he wanted me to like round my shoulders out a bit more rather than opening up my chest constantly. And to me, that didn't make sense in my body. So, I was just like, OK, well, I think of it like this, and for me it’s like pulling like pulling my diaphragm up, which kind of creates a bit more tension through my core, and that's just how it made sense to my brain. And now the communication loop is he uses the same language that I communicated to him that he gives back to me to make sure that we're always on the same page with our language, which makes a really consistent level kind of communication board. And that's just like one specific example, but that applies in a lot of our conversations, whether it's tactical or technical, like our coaches are always interested in the language that Bobbi and I use when we talk to each other so that they can communicate. They can give us instruction that makes sense in that space that we've already created, so we tell them what works in our partnership and then they try and communicate on the same level. So that's a very formal and then informal, it's more informal with other athletes, other athletes who are just like, oh yeah, that thing worked really cool might work really well. Or, you know, we try that. And gosh, that run was totally crappy sort of thing. So that's a little bit less formal, but we can all see what everyone's working on, and it's the athletes because they're outside that super level communication kind of field that the coaches and us maintain they can sometimes see or throw a different word in or throw a different perspective in that changes the perceptive for everyone, which can, you know, help us overcome plateaus.

Cameron Tradell [00:11:37] The coach’s ability to adapt the way they communicate is key to this clearly, because you both are obviously very clear on what you communicate and how you communicate. I'm interested in Bobbi as the guy you're going down the hill. These are starting to go wrong. What happens in your mind with regards to something's? Not quite there? How do you maintain your level of clear communication? Because that's key, right? What are the processes you go through to maintain your, your head and mind space?

Bobbi Kelly [00:12:07] Describing guiding to people? It's almost like you're juggling a ball and then people are throwing all these questions. One person's asking you a mathematical question, one person's asking you a science question, and you have to keep juggling the balls as perfectly as possible, and you have to just stay focused and still do the job at hand. So, I originally was very overwhelmed by this because Mel's this amazing athlete who have so much respect for, I never really wanted to let her down or screw up. However, I think over this period of skiing with Mel, we figured out what works best for us as a team. And that's something that just, I guess, has come with time. Every guide and athlete will work differently. That's part of a journey as a team. I tend to take on information and I guess even say information a lot more simply than what Mel does. Mel takes on a lot of information, and she can describe things very elegantly, and I'm just really basic. So, I guess something that's really worked for us is Mel does a lot, she counts and she relays information when we inspect and then when we run to the courses and I kind of say, what's happening in front of me and kind of react to things very clear and as simply as possible, really. And that's something that I guess I've had to work on as well, for Mel, her senses are quite heightened. So that means when I speak, I have to try and keep the same tone. I don't want to raise my voice too loud if something's about like something that's happened, that was unexpected. I try and just keep my cool and just try and focus on the task at hand and say it as simply as possible. There's no real time to muck around, really, so I just try and stay focused.

Cameron Tradell [00:14:11] It's a unique skill in its own because you're also skiing yourself and you're giving that guide and then you've got, as you say, an incredible athlete in Mel who not much she can't do on the slopes. So, I'm interested in that in the do you do coaching independently of each other, like when you go and work on different things? And what does that look like? What would you work on Mel away from Bobbi? What are some of the things that you would do with other coaches without Bobbi being there? And part two of that is what's it like when you then come back together, and you've got some slightly new nuances or you got some differences? How do you integrate that into what you do?

Mel Perrine [00:14:49] So I think the fun thing is with being visually impaired is I could never go away from Bobbi. I need her. But we have started to figure out a way that we can actually do that because sometimes you just can't focus on your own skiing if you've got either someone in front of you or someone behind you. So, we do this thing when we're struggling with new drills or a concept that we're just not clicking into, we do this thing called leapfrogging. So sometimes I'll stay in one spot and Bobbi will ski away until the end of our comms system range. And then but then she’ll give me information about the slope in front of me and where she's going and point me exactly where the fall line is. And because she's giving me that information, I can then ski towards her with her guiding me vocally but not having her in front of me. And that will then allow me to work on whatever I'm working on and Bobbi to work whatever she's working on without having to worry about each other. But that's about as far away from each other as we ever get.

Cameron Tradell [00:15:46] Bobbi, if you're working on a new skill or you're working on things that are going to enhance you from a guide perspective. Do you do everything with Mel when you're trying out new things, or do you practise some things externally and then try and optimise?

Bobbi Kelly [00:15:59] I'm fortunate enough that I work at a ski resort, I'm always on the snow. I like I live on the snow, so I'm constantly testing out new things and skiing is whenever I can. I am lucky I do go out and just work on things when I can. However, if it's a training day and I just I need to work on something, and I’m not getting it, I sometimes I just have to go "Mel I'm sorry, can you just like, have a break? And I just need to figure it out these skis.  I just need a couple of runs just to get going or something” it’s definitely not, I'm not as young as what I used to be, and I just need a few runs to get me sorted

Cameron Tradell [00:16:39] As you move forward. What's the next piece for you? How do you keep striving to be better? Do you put plans in place, like you said about the process to getting better and optimising what you do? Or is it about "we just set our sights on a tournament to win or something to win"? Or have you got really clear goals on what it takes to be better?

Mel Perrine [00:16:59] I think the one thing that's really held true across my entire career is that the process has always been more important to me, and I'm so lucky that Bobbi also thinks that same sort of way. So, I strive to be the absolute best, most competent, most technically efficient skier that I can be, and I do as much as I possibly can, both on snow and off snow to just be a better skier. And I think my first guide... it was my first guide, Andrew said. He's like, you focus on the process and the results will take care of themselves. It's the process that matters. So, we've got all these big massive competitions coming up, but I'm super excited to get over to the northern hemisphere and train because I think by training, I'm going to get to, Bobbi and I are going to be a better partnership where I'm going to be a better skier. And that's just going to lead to a whole bunch of fun and some cool results like, that's what really matters to me.

Cameron Tradell [00:17:58] Bobbi, is it fair to say fun is the core of everything you're doing? Yes, competition winning is important, but realistically, it sounds like fun is a core component of this.

Bobbi Kelly [00:18:06] Absolutely. I honestly couldn't think of anything better. I'm skiing with my best friend in the mountains. You know, like every day is just so much fun. And I think Mel hit the nail on the head there with the process I think that's probably one of the things we're best at in terms of our communication. I would say they're really good at just trusting the process, and I know that sounds really lame when you hear it all the time, but we just focus on one run and then two runs. I'm just exactly like day one of training. That's all I'm thinking about, leading to the next to the northern hemisphere and just being extraordinary at the ordinary. I think we're both really good at doing this, chatting through it.

Cameron Tradell [00:18:51] I think that's key and core to everyone is the fact that having fun is really important. Understanding the process and the results will come. I think that that is a great philosophy to, to sort of hang true to. How important is it for you to maintain and keep the same communication that you've had that's got you to where you are today?

Mel Perrine [00:19:10] I think we feel such a great foundation that I don't want to change our communication style. I trust Bobbi with my life and to change any part of that, that relationship would be to, you know, undermine that trust. Bobs has ever since we started getting together, she's been awesome at just trying to make sure not only that I'm always safe, but they were always striving for a high level of performance. And I think both those things matter equally to me. So, I said, I don't really want to change our communication style, because it would change the trust level, and I already trust her with absolutely everything.

Cameron Tradell [00:19:48] Mel and Bobbi thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us this afternoon. Incredible insight and a lot to take away for coaches and athletes alike with regards to keeping open communication lines there for people to understand, to learn and to grow together. Thanks again. Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Traddell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Oficiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series. We will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. We'd like to welcome Greg Chappell to be with us today, Greg provides a multifaceted view of sport. Having been a player at the international level, he worked as a selector for the National and Queensland teams, a member of the Australian Cricket Board, a coach. He's worked as a full time commentator. And he was also with the Indian Cricket team for two years as he filled in as the national coach. Welcome, Greg. Thanks very much for joining us.

Greg Chappell [00:01:00] Thanks, Cam. Nice to be with you.

Cam Tradell [00:01:01] Greg, you've had a lot of experience with regards to what coaching has looked like from the coach's point of view, but also from the players perspective and over the time, what have you seen in reflecting on all that, that the key attributes of of good coaching look like from your perspective?

Greg Chappell [00:01:18] Yeah, it's a very interesting question, because I obviously grew up in an era where there wasn't a great deal of organised coaching. We were lucky that my two brothers and I were lucky that our father was a very keen cricketer and keen sportsman generally, and he encouraged us to play sport. Cricket was always his favourite sport, so that was the dominant sport for us. But luckily, the way he introduced us to the game was very clever. There was a lot of intuitive stuff there. He understood the game very well and he understood coaching better than I think I realised at the time. The three of us all finished up playing for Australia. We all had very different styles and that was because Dad's early introduction was about what he wanted us to do, not how to do it. So he allowed us to develop our own style, and I think that was a very important part of it. The other really important point that I reflect on now, I didn't realise it at the time, but he encouraged us whenever we played cricket in the backyard or with our friends or down the beach or wherever it was, it was always to be played seriously. He wanted us to play with the hard ball from an early age, but he didn't give us any pads and gloves to play with. So the message behind it was always, if you learn to use the bat properly, you won't need pads and gloves. So it was a bit of tough love, if you like. There were a few wraps on the leg and a few wraps on the fingers. But we learnt that if I did miss it with the bat, then it wasn't going to hurt us. So that was important. It also made us watch the ball. He also had a family friend or friend of his who did some sort of organised coaching on a Sunday morning near, well not far from our home and so any of the kids in the neighbourhood or anywhere in Adelaide, for that matter, I mean, I remember kids catching the tram down from the eastern suburbs of Adelaide. We lived in Glenelg and come down to Glenelg and walk down to Mr Fuller's place where he had a couple of nets in his backyard and he would throw balls to the kids and basically teach the defensive aspects of the game. But the part of it that I remember most was that when Mr Fuller was finished with us, Dad would take us into the next net and he would throw balls to us randomly, but full tosses, long hops, half volleys and he taught us to score runs. He encouraged us to look to be scoring runs. And I'm forever grateful that I grew up in that environment because it really did influence my my thinking and my style from a very early age. Then when we got to the elite cricket levels, they were no team coaches, they were no club coaches. They were people who organise practise by the clock, know how long you batted balls and who batted. But no one was giving a great deal of instruction, most of the instruction or most of the learning came peer-to-peer. You know, we would talk amongst ourselves, we would watch what the other guys were doing and watch particularly what the better players were doing and the beauty of the game being a very much an amateur game in those days was that training was only twice a week. You came from work because everyone had a job and you were keen to get there. So there was a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm. But also you had the odd test player. You had a few shield players who were indisperesed around your training sessions. So you got to look at good players up close. And that's where the learning came from. And I'm just so grateful that with the environment in which I grew up.

Cam Tradell [00:05:19] Those communities of practise in that peer to peer learning. And it's something that is so powerful with regards to, you know, your peers understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are because they see you so often and play against you so often. And I guess that's the piece where a coach can play a crucial role in creating those environments now, learning from all those experiences from the past.

Greg Chappell [00:05:41] Yeah look, I think the other important part of it was that they were also batting, bowling against the same players. The lessons that you were getting were pertinent to that moment. It wasn't just somebody's experience from a day gone by or some somewhere else. It's much harder being a coach, having sort of gone from being a player and got involved in coaching. The games obviously evolved from very much a pastime in the first half of my career, it was a pastime. We had a job and we played Cricket on weekends and, you know, a few in between. You know if you got the Sheffield Shield level or Test cricket, obviously you went further than that, but it was very much a pastime. Then we went through the revolution of World Series Cricket and came out the other side and it was semi-professional. So it was starting to evolve into that professional game. And more coaches came into being. Bob Simpson was the first coach that was introduced to an Australian team. And that sort of came from the pressure that evolved as the game evolved into the semi professional stage, there was more responsibility, more pressure on the team captain, when you talk about an Australian team. So the decision was taken that a lot of that responsibility had to be taken off the captain. So team managers, team coaches, media advisers and all those sort of people started to come into being and and Bob Simpson was the first one as an Australian coach, and he came at a time when we had a young team and he did a lot of drilling. He did a lot of work ethic sort of stuff, really got the guys working a lot harder. And that was with a change that started to take the emphasis away from the peer to peer stuff and put an individual in charge of the learning. And I'm not sure that that's necessarily the ideal situation, no doubt that peer to peer stuff still goes on. But all of a sudden we had an individual and it doesn't matter who that individual is or was. All of a sudden, somebody became responsible for the information. The holder of the information, if you like, all the wisdom, and I think  the wheel got sort of turned on the side a little bit at that poin. There's some good aspects of that, but I think there are some lesser, less good aspects of it and we can go into that as we as we talk.

Cam Tradell [00:08:26] It's interesting because if we take that down to the next level and you talk about what's happening at the top and often community reflects what happens at the top, what would good community coaching look like? What would those environments look like at the community level? How would you see that optimising the coaches role in the community?

Greg Chappell [00:08:46] Yeah, it's such an important one. And this is it wasn't so much what happened at the elite level, that sort of took things off kilter, in my view, it was what happened at that community level and the club level is all of a sudden we decided we needed more coaches. And so the coach education came into being and then that grew very quickly. And there were some good aspects of that. But the emphasis of coaching became around technique. And from a batting point of view, it became about not getting out and from a bowling point of view, it became about not going for runs. And that's the wrong aspect, in my view, in the beauty of the education that I got, it was about scoring runs and taking wickets. And you learnt everything from that aspect, but I think what's happened over the last 40 years or so is that as we've got more coaches at that community level, I mean, we had our training sessions, were twice a week and they were generally in nets because that was the only efficient way you could get a group of however many people through a training session reasonably quickly and efficiently. But they were top up sessions. A lot of what we learnt, particularly as kids and in the formative years, was from our backyard cricket, our cricket down the park or the beach, which was totally run by the kids themselves. We had no adults, we had no coaches, no umpires. We umpired our games. We argued amongst ourselves. We decided what the rules were. We decided depending on the location in the backyard, obviously it was a much tighter environment. So you had automatic wicketkeepers and the trees were out and the house was out or whatever. And then down at the park, you maybe had a few more kids. So you had a few extra fielders, but you still have some trees that were part of the fielding team and so on. So you were learning in an environment that was very close to the game. You were making decisions in real time so that the development of the individual wasn't just about the technical aspects, it was about the mental aspects and the decision making. And what we know from history is that the best players are the best decision makers. They are the ones that are picking up most information and using it more efficiently and effectively than than the rest. It's not technically driven. I mean, if you want a good current example, you wouldn't necessarily coach someone to bat like Steve Smith from a technical point of view. But he knows how to make runs. You know, he he's learnt to to bat in an environment that was about run scoring. And so what I believe we need to be doing at the community level is teaching people the whole game. So creating environments that match the games. Cricket, possibly golf is the other sport that train in one environment and play in another. You know, we don't play in nets, we play in a field that's got spaces and the art of batting and the best batsmen have been the ones who've been able to hit the ball where the fielders aren't. And so if you're not learning in an environment that is teaching that, then you're only learning part of the game. And I think that the problem that I have seen, particularly once I got into the coaching role, was that nets can be good, but you've got to understand how to use nets. But it's not just a matter of bowling a never ending over or batting, you know, just batting for volume, the worst word I here in cricket these days. Where do you get the volume? It's not about volume. It's about the quality of the training and the quality of the learning environment. The coaches role, in my view, is to create a learning environment, not be didactic, not be the owner of all the wisdom, but be able to create the environment that imbues the education.

Cam Tradell [00:13:13] Incredibly insightful because context is key, taking that to it to another level. What are some of the key aspects that an official, an umpire can provide to assist at any level of the game?

Greg Chappell [00:13:27] Yeah, it's a really good question because the good umpires stand out. Generally, they're good human beings. They are the people that have got a little bit of an understanding that not everyone's perfect, perhaps no one's perfect and that people are going to make mistakes. Cricket is an emotional game or sport is an emotional activity. And sometimes emotions run over and people say things and and maybe do things or threaten things that may be not appropriate. And the best umpires have been the ones that have handled the whole environment the best. They generally were good decision makers. Some of the worst numbers were the ones who were so fixated on getting the decisions right that they the environment got out of hand. Whereas the better umpires sometimes make mistakes, umpires will always make mistakes. You were prepared as a player to accept a mistake from an umpire that you knew who was a good bloke and ran the game well, understood that they was going to be some emotion running over from time to time. Mel Johnson was one who stood out in my time. From an Australian point of view, Mel hadn't played first class cricket, but he played premier great cricket. He understood the game. He was a school teacher, so he understood young men, young people. And so he he could read the situation. Well, know Dickie Bird in England was another. Now the good umpire for the same reason. I mean, Dickie Bird had no right to be a good umpire. He was the most nervous, anxious individual that I ever met. But somehow he got his decisions right generally. But he also allowed the game to ebb and flow. But when something looked like it was going to get out of hand, he would step in. And the good umpires did that, they would just say to the captain "mate watch out this situation starting to get out of hand. You better handle it." They never let it go too far. And there was a little bit of give and take, you had a relationship with those umpires, they weren't the only two, they were other good ones around. But you actually had a relationship with the umpire as a player and as a captain. And it was really important. You didn't have to be the best of mates with the umpires. There had to be a bit of distance. But a good relationship between the captain and the umpire made a really big difference because all the umpire had to do was say, "Greg, this is a bit of an issue you better sort it out" and you knew tha he meant it, and you knew that if you wanted the relationship to continue, you had to handle it.  And so most things were handled on the field. I think what's happened since we've got match referees and third umpires, fourth umpires, DRS and all of that, the responsibility has been taken off the field. And I think that's made a huge difference, and you're not getting, I don't see the same relationships that existed before you took the responsibility off the field.

Cam Tradell [00:16:44] There's a lot to sort of unpack there because, I mean, those relationships become so important. The environments that they create with the coaches, the officials and the players all communicating well tend to be the the best environments to compete in any way.

Greg Chappell [00:17:00] Communication, you mentioned the word communication. That's key in any environment. You know, if you've got a standoff where you've got someone who's saying, look, that's not my responsibility or no, I've got to focus on this, I can't afford to distract myself by all that sort of stuff, then the environment is going to go downhill.

Cam Tradell [00:17:19] Fantastic Greg, thanks very, very much. We really appreciate it. There's a lot for us to think about and a lot for us to take away and I'm certain that a lot of community coaches will learn a lot from that. Thank you very, very much for your time today.

Greg Chappell [00:17:30] My pleasure, Cam. Nice to talk to you.

Cam Tradell [00:17:35] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I’m the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:32] Today, we're fortunate to be joined by Lauren Jackson, former Australian Opals basketball legend, WNBA/ WNBL player, Naismith Hall of Fame member, Sport Australia Hall of Fame Board Member and who is currently the head of Women's Basketball and Girls Strategy at Basketball Australia. Lauren made her debut for Australia at the Sydney 2000 Olympics and has really done it all in basketball from playing at the elite level in Australia and overseas, to coaching the Albury Bandits women's team. Lauren, welcome to the podcast. I'll jump straight into our first question. So growing up, your mum was one of your coaches and clearly very influential to what happened. Do you remember any other coaches in those years as you were coming through, or even not coaches someone else who sort of set to the side that was influential to you?

Lauren Jackson [00:01:25] You know, I definitely do. There was a guy named Eric Kivi who was a coach from Wollongong. And for me, I really thought his demeanour and his manner in the way that he treated us and he was so respectful and just a really caring guy, you know, I loved him. He was one of my favourite coaches, you know, and I think that, it’s funny because it's sort of the other end of the spectrum. Tom Maher was one of my other favourite coaches of all time, and he was completely the opposite. There was nothing really gentle about him. So I kind of responded to, there was a quality in these coaches and I think it might have been that kindness piece because Tom underneath it all was kind and he wanted the best for his athletes. But Eric, especially as a junior, I think I was probably 14 the first time I played under him, I just remember this really gentleness about him and the way that he spoke and this calmness which I didn't have, like I was not a calm kid, but when other people are calm, that made me feel better. So he and my mum, my mum had that trait as well. Nothing really rattled her ever. And they weren't nasty. They didn't make us do completely outrageous things as youngsters. Like I had coaches having us do 50 push-ups before every training session and like just random stuff. You know, when you kids even at state level, I just I think that there's sort of a really fine line between ensuring that those kids are happy and safe and having fun and also able to perform like at the level you need them to perform at. And that's to me, that's probably the biggest challenge, particularly with state coaches and things like that, you know. So state under 16's and under 18's, like, it's really making sure that those kids are happy and they're enjoying their experience because otherwise they're going to drop out. You know, they won't continue on, which is what unfortunately what happened to alot of my friends.

Cam Tradell [00:03:26] You talked about his kindness and so on. Can you take us to what would one of his sessions look like? So what would the environment be like at one of his sessions? So you talk about him as a person. How did that work in the team environment? How did that sort of manifest itself?

Lauren Jackson [00:03:40] To be truthfully honest? I really don't remember like the on court stuff. I remember levels of accountability. And this is what my mum had as well, was as much as it was an environment where we felt safe, where we felt comfortable and everything like that, there was accountability like you had to, you know, they'll be kind and they'll be everything that you need them to be. But when you step on the basketball court, you go hard and give it everything you've got. And it's funny because my Hall of Fame thing, the other couple of weeks ago, one of my best friends from Albury was over here and she's now an under 14 coach of her daughter. But she was also my team mate when my mum was coaching. So we were watching all of these old basketball games from, you know, like under 12 state championships and Brodie, she said something about mum being tough and it's tough. She was tough. Like she was definitely tough coach. She expected the best from her girls. But as soon as that game was over, there wasn't that real anger. You know, if we lost, it was more about nurturing, like knowing that we felt that loss just as deeply as what the coach did, or as anybody else did. And I think that's it's a really fine line to juggle, because I think a lot of people who haven't played at any level of sport who come into sport, it's not knowing how to deal with those moments, like after a hard loss, or after big win. And you think you're on cloud nine and then you've got to back up two or three hours later at community sport and you get thumped, you know, like it's it's a really fine line to juggle kids. And, yeah, the coaches that I had, particularly in juniors, a lot of them knew how to do that and a lot of them didn't. And the ones that knew how to stuck with me.

Cam Tradell [00:05:26] So you're looking to coach your own kids as they come through. What sort of coach will you be like? We've got this image of what we are and what we want to say. What attributes do you think that you will bring to that community level, knowing that you've played at that very, very highest level for a long time? What are the ways that you will sort of distil that to the community game, do you think?

Lauren Jackson [00:05:44] I think that just giving the kids the opportunity to get out on the court and play their hearts out, but also in an environment where they're not going to get shouted at, they're not they're going to feel safe and feel like they're involved in something bigger than themselves. So, you know, I think that that calmness thing is a really big piece. I think a lot of kids deal with a lot of stuff at home, at school, the basketball court. That environment needs to be a place where they feel safe, where they feel like they can be themselves, where they feel like they've got team-mates who've got their back. They've got friends. There's adults that care about them. And I think that,that's what I want to be able to bring, you know, performance and outcomes is so important. Of course they are, everybody, you know, that otherwise we wouldn't play sport, right? But at that level, when kids are young, it is about ensuring that they're able to develop in an environment that is safe. And that to me, is probably the biggest thing about community basketball. Not to say, I'll have expectations, if we're training hard, you're going to go out there and play hard. But it's first and foremost, they've got to enjoy it. They've got to have fun and they've got to stay in the game. We've got to give them that pathway.

Cam Tradell [00:06:57] I like what you're saying with regards to you create the structure, but off the back of the structure, there's always mistakes. There's always opportunities. There's things for people to then make those instinctive decisions. I kind of like the fact that as well as you drill, there's always a Plan B because it becomes available, because that's what happens, because sports messy.

Lauren Jackson [00:07:14] It really is. Now, that's so true. So I think it's how you, I guess, structure your practises to make sure that you're drilling the the things that you can't control, you know, blocking out, rebounding, shooting, back cuts, setting screens, pick and rolls like you can't anticipate what defence is going to be played, or if they're going to be defensive players at all. You know, you don't know. So I think that it really does come down to the things that you implement in practise. And I guess even just highlighting a few different aspects of the game that you want the kids to work on. And they can do it at home like a lot of this stuff, they can pick up a ball in the backyard, which is how I grew up playing was in my backyard or a little kid down the road here is like out the front dribbling ball every single day. He's got a ball in his hand. And I think if you're doing that, you've got a ball in your hand, you just toss up shots. You naturally just going and rebounding and seeing where the ball's going to fall, you know. So there's a lot of I think just being able to have a ball in your hands and just doing stuff with it, it gives you an idea of what game play is going to be like. And a lot of that just comes from literally just having a ball in your hands.

Cam Tradell [00:08:23] Some of the creativity that comes from kids is remarkable to watch. Did that ever come into play like did you ever, the shots that you were making at the top? Were you ever making those shots as a kid?

Lauren Jackson [00:08:33] Yeah, absolutely. You know, my mum gave me a drill, one drill when I was a kid, you know, and I and she's always said to me, just get your mikan right, mikan, reverse mikan and underneath the basket and to the day I retired, I was doing that every single day before every single game, before every single practise, because it ensured like it ensured that I just got my touch. I just got my rhythm. And it's sometimes that's all it takes is just getting in your rhythm, you know. So I think some of these drills and look, I was so fortunate to have my mum who who had played at that level, and I guess she's got a basketball brain. So I think, you know, I think that stuff comes pretty naturally to us. But I would say that, you know, having to sort of go to drill something that can centre a child before a game, just bring their focus to the basketball game that is critical, you know, and that and it's different for all kids, you know. So it is it is a bit like education. It's literally finding out what the motivation is, how you can centre a kid, how can focus them. It might be one word. For me, it was having the ball in my hand, just doing mikan drill under the ring. So, yeah, it was that's yes, definitely. I had that one drill that one thing in the backyard.

Cam Tradell [00:09:43] I wanted to know if  that move that was you go to, was that your pet play? That's what you went to first?.

Lauren Jackson [00:09:50] No, it wasn't a pet play. It was it was like so if I got a rebound underneath the basket, which happened a lot, right? I just would go up and finish. So it was more of a finishing play. So if you're underneath the basket where I was most of my career, that was what I would go to. And getting that feel for the basketball before a game, it gives you the confidence, I guess, that, your not going to tank it. And then also it was a focus thing, right? It snapped me into gear. Like as soon as I started doing mikan, I knew that, you know, I was about to be either competing and training or in a game. And then as I got older, it just became a flow thing. It was just getting getting into my flow, just refocusing and resetting and also to with my injuries and things like that. Often my body was, you know, not great. And I had to sort of find a way to, I guess, just feel good. And that made me feel good. You know, I think my go to is like a three pointer, like at the end of a clock. But the thing is, they become you go to because you do them so much and drilling is just so important. And learning that routine, especially from a really young age, becomes so important later in your career.

Cam Tradell [00:10:55] You said propping up a three pointer. Is that out of the fact that you wouldn't do it in the middle of a quarter? However, you can do it right at the end on the crux, because if you hit, its gold, if you miss, no one's really expecting you to hit it, if it's right on the buzzer?

Lauren Jackson [00:11:10] Look, I you know, it's same with mikan and I sort of had a bit of a shooting routine and I would shoot, again this was towards the end of my career when I was older. I couldn't do a lot of the five on five training stuff and the pounding so much but I would shoot I get up two hundred, three hundred shots a day and the majority of them were three's or jumpers or, you know, just because that's all I could do. So all I if all I could do physically was shoot, I was going to shoot as much as I could. And it turned out I became a much better shooter when I got a lot older than I was when I was younger. But mum was really incredible when I was younger, because I do remember her saying to me, if you can make it three, you'll go as far as you can in the sport because big people don't shoot outside the paint. That's why I think my career went in the direction it did, was because I had those skills and my mum was the one that encouraged me to learn sort of guard skills as a big. So I was really lucky that I had just her guidance and her support. And look, I fought her every step of the way as a kid. I really did. She'd be like, go out and shoot you shots and then say, no, no way, get off my back. Don't talk to me about basketball like I was a hard kid to to be around. But some of the lessons that she gave me have stuck with me for the rest of my life.

Cam Tradell [00:12:28] Do you remember your coaches or what they encouraged you or how they encouraged you when you're growing up on those moves, you are a finisher, you get the ball, your job is to get that ball in that hole any way that you can. Do you remember the trial and error around working out the different ways of doing that?

Lauren Jackson [00:12:45] Honestly, I was missing out on basketball teams up until I was 13 years old. And then at 13, I got picked on Australian Junior Camp. I turned 14 at the camp and then I was on the pathway. I was within a year or two, I was in the national squad, but up until thirteen I was missing out on, I missed out on a Riverina team, you know, like that. It didn't come naturally that finishing off. And I did overthink things and I was anxious about everything, but it was the way that I dealt with that. And I played a lot better with my mother as coach because I felt safe underneath her. She was someone, even though she was tough, she brought out the best in me. So I would say that it does take time. And that's why with kids, you can't be hard on them because this is where they develop. This is where they get to that point where, you know, when they become thirteen or fourteen or fifteen, things start to click in. If they've been doing the work, regardless of whether they're making the plays at the end of the game, making teams or whatever, if they've been doing the work, this is when that stuff starts to really, you see it happen, you see it evolve.

Cam Tradell [00:13:46] So even in maturation, if you're looking at the maturation rights of kids as they come through systems or they come through just the normal growth spurt, those ones that have got those micro skills as they get into maturation, when everyone else catches up, they tend to be the ones that thrive because they're not reliant on their speed, their power from a young age where they dominate, therefore they don't need those micro skills. And then when they get there, they can then thrive because they've got now the size, the speed, the power or just the physical capability, along with those micro skills as well, which really help the game.

Lauren Jackson [00:14:20] Like I wasn't even the tallest on our team here in Albury up until I was probably twelve, I reckon. I had team-mates who now come up to my below my boob, you know, and they were taller than me when we were ten, eleven, you know. So it's kids they mature differently. So being able to give them a more complete skill set from a young age and having them do all the different things, not sort of putting them into a box is really helpful.

Cam Tradell [00:14:47] Thank you so much for sharing some incredible insights with us today. Lauren, really appreciate the insight into creating a positive, safe, learning environment for participants at the entry level and what it can mean to not just high performance sport, but also how it can help grow people through their lives has been incredible. Thanks very much.

Narrator [00:15:11] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production. Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and i'm the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, we're joined by Peter Condie, who's the CEO at the Australian Institute of Sport. Good afternoon Peter, how are you?

Peter Conde [00:00:41] Good afternoon Cam, very well. Nice to be with you.

Cam Tradell [00:00:43] Peter, I just thought we'd start with a really holistic view of Australian sport. Over the last 20 years, so much has changed. There's been so much growth in different areas and obviously technology and so on has really advanced. How have you seen the changes in sport and the impact in sport over the past 20 to 25 years?

Peter Conde [00:01:02] Well, it would be presumptuous of me to talk back that far. So my involvement with high performance sport really started from about 2005 onwards, and that was really transitioning out of my previous role in business. And I was asked to do a review of the sport that I was connected with, which happened to be the sport of Sailing, which happened despite Australia's pretty good performances, very good performances at the 2004 Olympics. The sport that I was engaged with came home empty handed and so no medals at all. And I was asked to, because of my business strategy background, to do some work in helping to turn that around. And, you know, quite frankly, I had no real expertise in the area. I was engaged heavily in sport. Would it be my early days of running, which I didn't particularly enjoy or my actual sailing experience before I moved into business. So really, that was a great experience, though, because what it gave me was an opportunity to to be engaged with some really outstanding people who really knew quite a lot about high performance and gave me an excuse to go around and talk to a whole bunch of sports and a whole bunch of coaches, athletes, managers in my sport nationally, internationally and overseas, and to synthesize what we rather hopefully termed was the gold medal plan. And fortunately for us, the gold medal plan came good in Australia's won in sailing multiple gold medals at every Olympics since, that's not quite true, only one gold medal, but three silvers in Rio. And, you know, I think back to to that is a little microcosm of what we're after, I think. And it was actually Victor Kovalenko, who's known as the medal maker, a head coach of that program, who really led me to this sort of understanding that what we really needed to be successful was three things gold medal athletes, gold medal potential athletes, gold medal coaches and gold medal support systems. And that without, you take one of those three legs of the chair away, it's going to fall over. And so I think that, you know, when we look at the the changes in the performance of Australia over a period of time and, you know, we still punch well above our weight. You know, we're still an Olympic Games top 10 in the world. Some people are disappointed with that. It's actually and I'm probably one of those because I think we can do better. But it's a damn good performance for a country of 25 million people. But, you know, when we looked at how those performances have changed at the elite level over the last 17 years old or thereabouts, I think that that's where we've got to look, you know, where are we in terms of identifying, nurturing, retaining, developing, those athletes have got the potential to be the best in the world. Where are we in terms of developing the coaches? Certainly at the elite level that are going to be able to take them along that journey or move along that journey with them. And where are we in terms of building the right support systems? And, yeah, look, there's been lots of technological advances and so on, but we do pretty well in that. So I think that's where we look when we look at our performance trajectories. And certainly that's a model that underpins what we're thinking about in terms of the priorities in the Australian high performance sports system in the AIS and in the National Institute Network that supports athletes around the country.

Cam Tradell [00:05:05] It's incredible when you think about the role and the breadth of the role of something like the institute with regards to how you support the multiple sports understanding that the nuances between the team sports, the individual sports, what do you think the role is or the optimal role that you see from the community level to supporting you?

Peter Conde [00:05:23] Well, I think overwhelmingly it's about introducing young athletes to or potential athletes, young people to to sport, creating an environment where they really love their involvement with sport for all those reasons of physical fitness of the social interaction that they get, the ability to challenge themselves, develop themselves. But at the end of the day, they won't make it through to where we see them in elite sport unless they have a real love of what they do. And certainly coaches play an absolutely pivotal role in that. And I can think back to my days as a youngster or my kids days and in various sports you'd find those. But that, you know, despite great intentions, might really have turned the kids off that particular sport or those that just created an absolutely terrific environment for those kids to thrive, develop, love their sport, really get engaged in not just doing exactly what the coach says, but really help with the coach, helping them to think about their their own development and that sort of self directed journey, and then to be able to explore the limits of their potential and really be fully engaged in it. And that's probably what is successful, not always the traditional model that people think about when they think about coaching and the way it's often portrayed, say, in movies. Don't ask me to name one right now, but, you know, you often see the, you know, really hard nosed coaches yelling and so on and on. I'm not sure that that's actually the model that is going to hold us in in great stead these days when, you know, we really want as I say, those athletes are pretty well rounded, engaged in their own development, love their sport. And I think the research shows, have a exposure to a great variety of sport along the way. And, you know, while there are some examples of very highly specialised early specialisation in certain types of sports that that have produced very highly successful athletes over time, they'll also really sound body of evidence that says, you know, early specialisation in many sports is not what leads to to great success. And part of that, I suspect, is skill development. Part of it is exposure to all sorts of different experiences and figuring out what they really like. And part of it is just enjoying themselves and really enjoying being part of that sort of sporting environment with all the sort of personal achievement and social engagement that it can offer.

Cam Tradell [00:08:33] It's that adaptability and able to see things through different lenses is crucial. Knowing that we've got these different environments that people enter into having to understand what Japan would look like, what Rio looked like, and is there ways that that the AIS supports the athletes once they get to that level through the coaching or through whatever, to be exposed to those sort of environments.

Peter Conde [00:08:58] Well, certainly on the AIS's role is is in part to administer the public funds that are directed to enable those high performing athletes to be able to achieve on the world stage. And that's certainly something that that that most athletes wouldn't be able to afford to do themselves. So the AIS does absolutely contribute in terms of the funding that we provide to national sporting organisations to to support their strategies, the strategies we've agreed with them around providing international training opportunities, international competition opportunities, supporting them to have, as I say, those high potential athletes to have great coaching and to have great support systems around them, that is essentially our role to ensure that across the broader system, through the national sporting organisations programs supported, by not just the Canberra campus of the AIS these days, but rather by the broader network of state and territory institutes and academies of sport that provide those distributed opportunities, geographically diverse opportunities for athletes to develop in a really good daily training environment with great coaches, great peers, and to be able to do so in close to, in most cases, close to their support systems, their family support structures and so on, which I think is quite important. We're always trying to get, I think, what's the right balance between getting the critical mass and the great thinking that you get when you bring groups of athletes and groups of coaches together into that sort of critical mass, but at the same time balancing that against the support systems that they need to be well-rounded young adults and and those that are well positioned to be successful not just through sport, but in life after sport and sport can be a great a great way of preparing young people for, you know, what happens when you when you knuckle down and and work hard and focus on how you can improve and developing all sorts of other skills around how to interact with team mates and how to support each other and so on. It's a great developmental environment and I think we're damn lucky that the Olympic Committee has been able to secure the 2032 Brisbane Games, because I think it just brings a focus to those opportunities. And I think there's a lot of positive things happening around our sporting system at the moment, particularly our elite sporting system, and I think gives us that opportunity to really springboard off those recent changes and to really achieve our aim of truly being a world leading sporting nation, world leading sporting system.

Cam Tradell [00:12:07] Yeah, that's again, I think it is a really exciting opportunity. What do you see the the you know, the short term and maybe the long term future looking like knowing that you're starting to get some really exciting pieces of work done here at the AIS around the taskforce and so on. What do you see the future looking like? What are you what do you what are you heading towards?

Peter Conde [00:12:27] Well, I think I've just sort of touched on it. There is you know, we have what I think is a pretty balanced set of aspirations for the system, which is that, you know, unequivocally, we want to be able to deliver. We want our athletes to be able to win medals, stand on the podium at major international events like the Olympic Games, the Paralympic Games, Commonwealth Games. And but that's not the only thing we're after here. We're really investing quite heavily. And I think having quite a lot of success in the helping to produce those well-balanced, well-rounded athletes who are role models for their communities and engage with their community. So that's the second set of objectives are now. And our third is what I just touched on, which is having what we describe as a truly world leading system. And in a world leading system, I think we we have a system that is able to identify and support those athletes most likely to be able to succeed on the world stage. We'll have a system that outstanding at identifying, developing, retaining the very best coaches in particular. And that's the subject of the work that's going on right now to create that outstanding coach development environment in the high performance sector. And I know, as as you know, we're working really hard to link with the work that you're doing at Sport Australia in community coaching, and those have separate requirements, but a lot of commonalities. And, you know, I think we're very pleased that we're working, I think, very effectively across the system to ensure that that's very well connected and and we're leveraging off the insights that you've generated and vice versa. So I think, you know, we could talk about a range of things that that that would comprise a world leading system. But, you know, that's what we want to have. And and I think that, you know, the what's required to be there has certainly moved a lot over time. And we just this year celebrated the 40 year anniversary of the AIS and that came about back in 1991 because, you know, essentially Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser and others in his cabinet decided that that the the the performances of Montreal in 1976 weren't really what the Australian public expected. And the AIS a centralised hub of great developing athletes, great coaches, great sports scientists, sports medicine practitioners, really made a massive difference in the period immediately following the AIS' opening in 1981, certainly right up to 2000, 2004. But like all systems, we have to if we want to stay at the top, we have to move forward. And, you know, one of the great strengths I think that we have now, and it was indeed foreshadowed by Don Talbot, who was the initial director of the AIS, that, you know, in his view, one day we'd have an institute in each state. Well, we do and we have had that for a little while now. But what we've got in more recent times is a recognition that if we're going to to be a world leading system, then we need to be highly coordinated and collaborative across that system. So we've got a real national approach to how we support our athletes and our teams and our sport. And that, I think is a major means that it's a major game changer. I think that all of those resources and the significant resources put in by all of the states are really coordinated and marshalled and insights are shared, rather than duplicated across the system. Work is research. Insights are leveraged for the benefit of all. I think that that we've got a really good, good base there for for that sort of system that can support athletes no matter where they are across the country. And we as I say, we we work with the sports and with the institutes to make sure that we've got a really good balance about bringing together that critical mass, finding ways that in a more modern environment of really connecting the coaches, for example, to learn from one another. You know, what does that you know, what are those mentor relationships look like? What does it look like to be an apprentice coach in or scholarship coach? Different terminologies for somewhat the same thing. Because, you know, we can we can teach people a lot about coaching in a classroom, but it's not nearly enough. It's that opportunity to work with the greats who have built their art and craft combined with science, if you like, that really makes for an outstanding coach. And in this day and age, coaches are not enough to be a technical expert or a tactical expert. The biggest requirement that almost got to be given and what you need to have is people who are outstanding at dealing with individuals that are outstanding at developing those individuals and getting the best out of them, understanding how to communicate to them effectively, how to give them really effective feedback to be able to to guide them and collaborate with the athlete in order to to be able to help them to be the best.

Cam Tradell [00:18:31] It's no doubt about it. Definitely an exciting time. And that cohesive operating model with regards to some really clear roles and responsibilities and setting ourselves all up for success, I think is a really exciting prospect for Australian sport collectively, whether you live in the community, it's something to really sort of celebrate. But I also think something to really get behind and aspire to knowing the Brisbane Olympics is such an exciting prospect. Thanks very, very much for your time this afternoon, Peter. We really appreciate it. Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.