Transcript

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is How you officiate, a modern approach to officiating. This includes preparing to officiate, decision-making and time management, all with a participant centred approach.

Today I'm joined by Cheryl Jenkins, who is the Australian Open Chief Umpire and Chief Umpire at Tennis Australia. From humble beginnings as a line umpire in the 1990s, her officiating experience has taken her around the globe to some of the world's biggest sporting events. She has officiated at all four Grand Slams, Commonwealth and Olympic Games. In addition, she's an educator with the International Tennis Federation and here in Australia supports the development of tennis officials from community level through to high performance. Thank you for joining us, Cheryl.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:01:15] Thank you Brooke. And I'd like to acknowledge that I'm coming from the lands of the Yugambeh people here in Brisbane.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:20] Fabulous. Thanks for that. So, Cheryl, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be an international tennis official? Tennis Australia and Australian Open Chief Umpire, and your current involvement from community through to international officiating.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:01:35] Oh my gosh. Well, I came a well come from a bit of a tennis family. So, tennis was that the sport that we all played even though we all did other sports as kids? Tennis was the, the common sport. So even grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. It was definitely the family sport. And so, my dad actually, through his work, started officiating at Milton. And one of the guys there got it, got dad involved. Then I got my turn to be a ball girl, you know, at Milton as well. And then I guess my brothers and as we got older, moved into officiating and there's like, oh, you know, I get to the age of, you know, towards the end of high school, part time job. One more. We're going to tennis courts anyway, so I might as well start officiating to get some extra money, pocket money on the side. I then could see some people that I really admired in officiating. Donna Kelso is one who's a WTA supervisor. We became good friends when I was still ball girl, and we're still friends today, and I admired her because she was a line umpire and I could see her be a chair umpire, started travelling the world. I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. I'd like to do that and watch all the awesome things that she would do. And I guess that was kind of my then role model. When time came to think about family, it was like, oh, I still want to do stuff. So juggled chair umpiring and babies for a little while, and then I was like, okay, I need something else. And so, why I went down the chief umpire pathway. So that's where the management side now of officials comes into it, a more the education side as well. So yeah, just from humble beginnings at Redcliffe to now I get to, to travel the world at times and yeah be off to Wimbledon in a couple of weeks.

Brooke Kneebush [00:03:15] What a great journey and thank you for sharing that and that element of family and doing it with your, your brothers and your dad, that is such a massive part of sport, and it's really fabulous when families get to enjoy this sport together.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:03:29] It is, and it's something I see people who tend to be in it longer have all had some sort of family connection, and it's just not only your personal family, but then you also then create friendships that become like family of people that you progress with. So, I also have a couple of fellow female officials that, we went through our white badge school together, our bronze badge school together, travelling the world together. And yeah, still mates. You know, we don't live in the same place, but, you know, we’re still mates and we still catch up. And yeah, we're actually trying to arrange a catch-up during Wimbledon qualifying now.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:06] Wow. Friends for life. And amazing that you were able to juggle parenthood, motherhood, alongside all that as well. And actually we’re branching into my next question, really. So, you you've been involved in officiating for over 30 years. You've talked about those friendships and the travel. What are some of the other reasons that you do it? Why do you keep coming back, and what motivates you to be the best that you can be?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:04:30] I think to be honest, it's the people that you come across and meet because I guess officiating, that's what brings us together. But we all come from different walks of life. You know, officiating is our common purpose. But, you know, there's teachers, there's doctors I've met FBI agents. You know, all these crazy people like, you know, crazy as in, like, awesome things that they do. Scientists, you know, really intelligent people. And what do we love to do? We love to be on a tennis court and officiate and at times call a ball in or out.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:03] Actually, it's interesting you say those people from all those different professions because I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg, because sometimes the skills of officiating that you develop while you're being educated and learning and practising officiating can really contribute to those other aspects of your life as well.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:19] So I think there are lots of skills we can learn in our other life that then translate across well into being a good official, and that could be across all sports to be honest, not just tennis.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:29] And not just officiating either, could be coaching or could be as a player or athlete.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:34] Exactly.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:35] So again, you've started to touch on, on some of this, but I imagine it can be really quite demanding physically and mentally to, to be an official, whether it's at community level or at that peak international level. What are some of those demands on officials, and can you give us a bit of a, an idea of what goes on when you're officiating at a community event?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:59] So for us, when we talk about community level, we call that competitive play in tennis. So that's a local weekend tournament that you'll, you'll see. I think that the physical demands there for officials is, what people may not realise is those officials can be on the ground from eight hours to 12, ten hours to 12 hours to 14 hour days and then back up the next day and do it again. And depending on the number of days of the tournament, you can do it over four days back-to-back. And that's long hours standing outside in the weather. So yes, we may not be running physically on a, on a field like they do in some other sports or on a court, but then on those sports, they just go to do that match and usually leave, whereas we're there for the whole day. So yeah, so that can be quite hard for officials, and you know, think about out there, 30 plus degrees heat here in Brisbane 90% humidity most days, it feels like. So that can be physically quite draining but draining obviously in a different way, so that can be tough for officials.

Brooke Kneebush [00:07:00] I imagine there are times when you need to diffuse potentially volatile situations. What type of I guess skills does an official need and how do they need to engage with the participants before something happens, or if they do need to diffuse a situation like that?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:07:18] I guess it's just understanding what's happened. We, we do have rules in place that, you know, for non-umpired matches of of sets that they can follow as a, as a guide to help them work through a problem. Quite often it can be the kids have lost the score. How do we resolve actually what the score is, or the other one will be. They're deciding whether the ball is actually in or out. And obviously they disagree. So, it's going through the process of how we resolve that. So, there are some, some steps in place to help them work through that. So, it's not so bad. I guess one of the biggest challenges can be at times, very helpful parents who are very passionate about their children, and it's how they manage keeping the parents calm while the kids go out there and enjoy their game. So that can be a tough one, because when you step onto the court, that can be an easy thing to resolve because there's a very clear process of what they need to do. Whereas sometimes the hard stuff can actually happen off court and they need to resolve that.

Brooke Kneebush [00:08:19] And is their opportunity to engage with the stakeholders, whether it be the the players or the spectators or the other organisers of the event, to perhaps set a scene, try and establish a culture where everyone's respectful of each other.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:08:35] They are at the community level, competitive play level. It's very there's a lot of conversations that can just happen organically around the courts. You know, even starts with just saying hello and I guess becomes that familiar face. Oh, there's Brooke again. She said it this week. Oh, this, you know, you know, become that familiarity of seeing someone and then that builds rapport, builds respect. And you move on from just the hello conversation to oh how how's you know Tom playing today. You know, it can just grow organically. And you know and I think that's always nice to see when those, respect grows both ways of you know at that can be community play level.

Brooke Kneebush [00:09:16] And I mentioned that rapport could be really great for the players to have that familiar face. If they've got some nerves, it might be reassuring for them to see someone that they're familiar with.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:09:28] Absolutely. And I guess if they're going through a tough time, it might be someone that they can just go and confide in that's, you know, not Mum or Dad or the coach. It's just someone different. And I think that's, that's important for the kids to know that the officials are there helping to create that safe environment for them, not just on the court, but also off the court as well.

Brooke Kneebush [00:09:47] That's actually a part of the role of officials at that community level, that education element for the participants or for the players, isn't it? Because sometimes they're still learning the rules and they'll come across situations they haven't experienced before.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:10:02] It's very much an education process because you could be at a tournament one week, and you may have people who've been playing tournaments for a year, but you could have someone there on their very first day. So, it is constant education, and I think that's probably a driver of why people keep coming back to it, because, oh, now I get to help someone else. But it's not just the kids, it's also the parents. Because for the parents, this is, for many of them, a whole new world. Like a lot of them don't come from a tennis background. So yes, so there is a lot of education, not just on the rules, but also just etiquette in general.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:38] For sure. Now, can you tell me a little bit about a routine that an official might have, even at that international level, perhaps there's some things that people at the community level could learn from that.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:10:50] So I know some of our top chair umpires, some of them would like to go to a very quiet corner before the match. And they will go through, I've got my coin, you know, I've got all the tools that they need for their job, which is obviously very relevant also at the community level as well. You also need all your tools to your job, whether that's your coin, you whistle, you tape measure whatever you need. You need to make sure you have that routine. If I go back to myself, one of my things was always, have to go to the toilet for each match because you don't want to get out there for a long match and be like, oh, I should have gone for only in the first set. I'm still here for another couple of sets. That's part of what a chair umpire will do. But some are happy to, to have conversations in the lounge and, and then just go straight to their match. Others that will go and find a quiet corner, gather their thoughts, especially before those big matches and then go and do their job. But, but they are very professional and it's actually quite amazing to watch them. And I guess one thing we also do in Australia, which to my knowledge, we're the only ones who do this, is we also have, a sports psychologist who comes and joins us, and it's actually nice to watch the chair umpires, whether they're Australian or the internationals, all go and take and have a conversation with John whether that's in the, the umpires lounge or they go for a walk and have a coffee. But and I think that's one of the things we like to do for our officials to help with their wellbeing. And looking after them is provide that opportunity. And we also do that for our Australian officials year-round - access to, to a sports psychologist. I think it's just around having someone who's a bit removed from the sport and from the day-to-day runnings of things, just for you to just go have a conversation. Hey, I experienced this. Do you have some other strategies of how I could have handled it that are not necessarily tennis related? But I guess it comes back to those people skills that we were talking about earlier, conflict management. Because conflict management is not just a sport thing that's life. So, it's made some of those life skills that John can help them navigate through.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:54] What a great resource to have. Let's talk now about decision making, because I think what spectators often don't realise is that officials look like they're just sitting there not doing much. And yet there's a lot going on in their mind and there are so many decisions actually taking place, but there's only a few that actually get called because the official has decided it's not requiring a call. Do you have a routine? I imagine it's become kind of gut instinct by now, but a routine that you sort of follow to make and process decisions?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:13:29] Absolutely a routine. There's a routine that we educate officials, like those who are training to be chair umpires on, on the routine of how you start the point. You know from watching the server at the beginning, watching the feet, checking the ball, so there is very much a routine and within that routine, there's lots of decisions that need to be made. You know, when do you stop watching the server to check track ball at the net, to watch the ball, to then make sure you haven't missed the foot fault if you're the only chair umpire. There's a lot of things that, yeah, like you said, will happen instinctively, the more experienced you have. Decision-making, whether that's, you know, it can be even competitive play. The decision can be for the referee and the supervisors. Do I stand near courts two and three to observe those plays? Or do I need to go to court four and five? So there's a lot of things of just understanding what's the feel for the sport, for the match at that time and that, that goes across all sports, I think. So, it's not just the, the chair umpire on court having to decide, you know, the player is starting to bounce the racket. Is that racket abuse or is it. You know what. Brooke. Can you just keep your racket in your hand? A conversation at the change of ends? Or does it need to be a code violation? So, there will be lots of subtle things. Do we just need to say, hey, Brooke, just hold on to your racket. Or do we need to, you know what? You've gone too far - straight to the code violations. But. And that can also happen as a competitive play. And, the supervisor might go up to the fence and say, hey, Brooke, you might need to keep your racket in your hand. So, anything can happen on the big match as well. So lots of subtle things that will happen that people won't see. And the more experience you have, the more you'll become aware of when to step in and when not to.

Brooke Kneebush [00:15:21] So there's a lot that you have to think about, but even when you are as prepared as you can be, I can imagine whether it's standing there for 10 or 12 hours or eight hours a day, or sitting in the chair in the beating sun, that it could be really easy to become fatigued and perhaps lose concentration even. Have you got some tips on how you maintain the stamina to keep pushing through and stay focused despite all of that?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:15:52] I think if I'm looking at community player level, I think it's just being constantly present around the courts and walking around the courts like don't stay stationary. I think that that's becomes your downfall. Just, you know. And it's that balance of, I think, for our local referees of knowing when to step onto the court and when not to. Which is a bit of a balancing act. At the high level, one little trick I used to have in my court bag, little mints. So sometimes you need that little sugar, little fix. I think it's about people identifying for themselves. What is it I need to do for me to help me get through my day? Is it? Do I need to drink more water? Do I need to maybe have a sports drink? Because, I feel I’m losing, I’m sweating a lot. I need to replenish some, some salts in my body. Also, as a chair umpire at the change of ends, you'll get the moment after everything thing’s calmed down. You may get 20s or so. Wiggle your toes in your shoes. Stretch, you know, give you feel a little, you know, think about sitting in an aeroplane, which we quite often do. You know how they teach you to do your little foot exercises to stretch around? You can do those little things, you know, stretch your shoulders, turn. So, there's subtle little things you do. Obviously, you can't get out of the chair and do, you know, ten star jumps. But there’s little movements you can do in the chair to, to keep you alert.

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:14] Great, great advice. Thank you. Now we were talking about line umpires, and it occurred to me that technology is increasingly becoming a part of tennis. Can, can you tell me a little bit about the different technologies that have been introduced over your time in tennis?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:17:31] In my time, we've had the old Cyclops, which was a beam that just went across only the service line, but obviously the biggest one that most people at the professional level will identify with is the live ELC, so electronic line calling. Which is obviously now when it's a live version, replaces line umpires. But there's also still the version with, the challenge system when we still have line umpires on court. At the community level, we have equipped many of our referees with body cameras, and this is a camera that hangs around the neck and it's there that, you know, if a dispute were to get, you know, significantly enraged. And right then it comes down to the vision. Not just what the referee said, not just what say a parent said. Because quite often, it's usually the more emotional conversations tend to be happening off the court. And it's to help deter those conversations and just calm people down. But it also means that if that situation gets escalated to the tribunal, we now have video footage to be able to decipher exactly what happened. It's actually been quite a positive thing because it's actually really helped to calm down many situations that perhaps in the past would have escalated.

Brooke Kneebush [00:18:53] And ultimately, it's about the players.

Now let's have a think about reflection. So, you mentioned that your officials do have access at times to a psychologist, but often and particularly at the community level, we need to manage our wellbeing ourselves, but also our professional development, our personal growth and reflection’s a really powerful way for officials to prioritise themselves in that way. How do you reflect yourself on your officiating and what benefit have you seen it to be over your career?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:19:27] I'm a bit of an old school girl. I'm a paper and pen diary girl. So I even during the Australian Open. I'm always walking around with a notebook and pen and just jotting down things because I find if I get to the end of the day, I'll be like, oh, what was that I meant to write down? So, I'm very much writing things down. And that's not just for my own self-reflection. It's also things that I think about. Oh, that worked well today. We need to remember that for next time or, or something's happened during the day. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. How do we improve that for the following day? Or is it something that we need to note down for the report at the end? This happened. We need to problem solve a solution for next year. So yeah, I'm very much - write things down and it's probably something I do encourage officials to do. Obviously, the younger generation, maybe it's writing it down direct onto their phones or onto their computers, and that's okay. I think whatever's going to work for you, I do think it's important to write things down, whether that's electronically or handwriting. And you go back and reflect on it and go. And I think one thing I like to say to be, yes, you make a decision. Walk away afterwards and go - did that work out well, or what could I have done better next time? I think it's about people asking themselves, what could I have done differently? And maybe sometimes there is nothing you could do differently and that's actually okay. But if there is a learning opportunity in there, take that opportunity and maybe go speak to someone else. Hey Phil, this happened on this day. This was my decision. Is there anything different I could have done? I think I do say to people that the dumb question is the one you don't ask. And I really think that's because sometimes people are afraid to ask a question, which I think’s sad. I think just ask it. You may not always like the answer you get, because it may differ from what you had hoped you would hear. But I think it's really important to ask questions because that will really help with your learning.

Brooke Kneebush [00:21:30] And I love the way you talked also about reflecting on the things that did go well, because sometimes we can always revert to the things that didn't go so well and really beat ourselves up over it. But actually, we probably did a whole lot of really great things as well.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:21:44] Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, you beat yourself up over that one decision that maybe yes, it did escalate, but then you've already made four other that were awesome or, you know, whatever it may be, maybe you've made 20 decisions prior that were fantastic. So yes, take the learnings from that one and then apply it to the rest, and then you'll do just fine.

Brooke Kneebush [00:22:06] Great. Now finally, while officiating can be challenging at times, it's also really rewarding and, that that's really why we do it. Is there one really rewarding experience that you've had as an official that you wanted to share with our audience?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:22:23] You know, I get little buzzes out of watching, especially the new officials come through, and then they achieve their goals, and they get really excited. I guess that's probably where I'm at now, is watching now the next generation come through and helping them and, and even going off to China a few years ago and, and helping someone the first year be an assistant. And then the next year she got to the school and progress. So yeah. So, the idea was always to go get her to be a chief umpire. So it was nice watching that, taking her from, from her P, from her L plates to her P plates to Open plates. You know, I guess that's probably the way to put it. So that's always nice when you get to have those moments. Listen, I'm quite fortunate in my officiating journey that there's been lots of nice moments along the way. And. I'm pretty lucky.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Great. And I can see and hear in your voice how passionate you are, and also appreciative of the opportunities that you've had through officiating. So, thank you for sharing your time with us, Cheryl, and for your insights into the theme of How you officiate, a modern approach to officiating. And thank you to our audience for listening.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:34]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:53] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Transcript

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with special guests each episode. I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics.

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:33] The theme for today's podcast is how you improve, including a modern approach to officiating, continuous learning, reflection, coping, and thriving. Today I'm joined by Kay Robinson, who is the National Wellbeing Manager, Refereeing at Football Australia, where she works with officials, leaders and stakeholders to drive positive change and support the wellbeing of officials. Thanks for joining us, Kay.

Kay Robinson [00:00:53] Thanks, Brooke. Really excited to be here. I'm speaking to you from Djarawong nation and looking forward to embracing the Aboriginal tradition of storytelling through our podcast today.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:04] Fabulous looking forward to it. So, Kay, you hold quite a unique position with football Australia. It's a role not commonly found in national sporting organisations. Can you tell us about your role?

Kay Robinson [00:01:16] Absolutely. So, I'm National Wellbeing Manager for the Referees at Football Australia and that stems from the elite level where I offer support to our elite panel of referees on the A-leagues as well as the Referee Department and also do some work trying to promote wellbeing in our community referees.as well. I've come from a sports physio background, so I've had a career in sport, and I guess it was kind of linked to my wellbeing that made me have a little bit of a transition moving away from the travel associated with sports physio and also really the, the time I did spend travelling really kind of grew my interest in athlete and sport wellbeing and it's given me the great opportunity to introduce a wellbeing strategy in an area that doesn't have many wellbeing strategies in officiating. So, the role is a combination of one-to-one support with our, our panels as well as group development and a bit of staff development. And working into some policies that can support the wellbeing of everyone involved in refereeing. So really try and take a bit of a departmental and systems approach. So that means that it's not just one person there for wellbeing, it should be the system provides good wellbeing support.

Brooke Kneebush [00:02:34] That's great because the wellbeing of officials right through from community level to high performance is also important. So, Kay, the role of the official extends well beyond applying the rules of the sport. The best officials are participant centered, emotionally intelligent, excellent communicators, quick and accurate decision makers, and uphold high ethical standards. And these are just some of the attributes expected of officials. So, to keep on top of all of these requirements, it makes sense that continuous learning is central to modern officiating. How can continuous learning impact officials’ wellbeing, and what type of skills can officials work on to contribute to their own positive wellbeing?

Kay Robinson [00:03:17] So important and probably a shift that we've seen in officiating, particularly in the recent years, as we bring in wellbeing and the importance of that, that growth mindset and it's so much more about more than the technical black and white these days is much more around managing the game and communications as well. Refereeing can be so all-encompassing and demand so many commitments, so I think wellbeing can sometimes be looked at as a little bit fluffy. But there's such strong links to performance and that health and wellbeing grounding is crucial, but it's really important that they have the mindset to be able to overcome obstacles like with, with athletes on the field, the selection obstacles they might make poor, might have a bad game and, and using that reflection and opportunities for growth is really crucial so that they can, can see those things rather than a bad game as actually a learning experience and moving forward. And I think it's really important with all this that we can work on doing this together, as a team. Officiating can be really isolating and so how we can work to promote this amongst each other and amongst our team is, is pretty important too.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:32] Great. And you've raised some really important points there. Let's look more closely at this growth mindset to start with. So, a growth mindset begins with understanding self. Why is it important for referees or any officials really to have good self-awareness? And what does that involve and, and how do you develop it?

Kay Robinson [00:04:52] I think one of the first questions I ask a referee and I've done this from the start. Just trying to understand why people go into refereeing and officiating. We all know that no one's there waving a flag for the referees. There's very few people in the stands, maybe family and a few friends who are cheering for the referees, so there's gotta be a really intrinsic reason of why someone's out there. So, my first question to most referees that I work with is why? Why do you do it? And I think that, you know, that leads to so many other areas in our life to really understand our why gives us really good self-awareness and some of the examples I've seen that in referees being involved in a game they love. A lot of it's around leadership and being able to lead other people. Giving back to the game. There's a huge thing around connections as well. You know, you make lifetime friends, you make connections with the wider footballing societies. There's so many, many varied whys, but it's important to understand that for yourself is really important because that's why often links to your values and if things maybe aren't, aren't going your way, being able to draw someone back to why they're there and the foundations of doing it can sometimes help as a bit of a reset, particularly if they've had a bad couple of games, bad season or there’s other things going on in their life. And equally keep coming back to if their why is still there. So, I think obviously reflection is key. We go to that deeper kind of why. But on a day-to-day basis, being able to reflect on how you've done and that doesn't just have to be in a game, it's did I sleep well? Is there anything I can do better? Are there any resources I can look at and that's where I'm available to support people, find those resources as well. But a lot of the work's gotta be done by the individual to find out where they wanna go and I think change needs to be intrinsically motivated to be valuable to that person. It's no good me going around and telling everyone they've got to have a certain amount of hours sleep per night or do this specific recovery. But maybe I can prompt the questions or the areas that maybe, maybe need to be reflected on and help with that process, whether it's a match day reflection and sometimes that's minimising. Yeah, I know we've had some officials who will spend hours and hours reflecting, which actually probably isn't great for their wellbeing because it takes up time and it becomes a little bit of a chore. So we've looked with individuals and it's such a unique thing of what works best for them and how they can get the most out of it and whether it's talking it through, writing it down, there's so many ways, but it needs to be individual, but sometimes just a few little prompts to, to aid reflection or a few tools has been found to be really beneficial.

Brooke Kneebush [00:07:44] Yeah. And you talked about that sort of over reflecting and sometimes that can be a cycle of really dwelling on a negative which can't be good. We need to use that reflection to look at ways to, you know, perhaps improve on that next time. Can you suggest some other ways that people can reflect because as you said, it's a really individual thing and people should be doing what works for them.

Kay Robinson [00:08:07] Absolutely. And I think one of the first conversations I have is being realistic with time, I think we mentioned you can have, you can over reflect, but you can also then eat into other things that are really important to you, whether this be family time. So, I think it's understanding the time frame that you have available and being able to mold something into that. So, finding the tool or the process that's right for you and very rarely does that come as the first thing you try. I think goal setting is so powerful as well, because then you can, you can link your reflection and it's often easy to get those outcome goals. And I know with our panel it's often referee at a World Cup or become a FIFA referee, which are fantastic outcome goals. But there's so much outside your control. So, it's fine to have those overarching goals to be the best that you possibly can but then it's thinking about those processes and what, what's put in place to get those processes. So, I like to suggest a bit of a hierarchical goal system where it's fine to have those overarching and it doesn't always need to be a, an event. It can be a feeling almost or a dream that people want to go and then really try and break that down to processes. The processes right that might be to improve my physical training or meet a certain fitness test requirement and then breaking that down into smaller steps as well around how are you gonna do that? And it nothing's perfect. So, it's actually a more about effort or engagement rather than I'm going to do something this many times a week because curve balls come into life, we know that. Other techniques that kind of more practical things, obviously using footage. I know our, our referees use footage. There’s feedback from coaches, there’s potentially even using footage from different leagues and reflecting on how you would do decisions. There’s journaling. I know some, I think it's a love it or hate it side. Some people really like that, that writing down, and I find that often with feedback from our officials gives a little bit of closure. They write back something that potentially was a challenge, something that really went and a learning point and then almost actually, literally draw a line under it and go - that's what I’ve taken and now it's time to move on. I can't change anything that happened. However, I might take some of those learnings into the next game.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:33] Excellent. And I really like the way that you touched on when you're talking about process goals and not only those big target goals, but the engagement element. And I think that engagement with your stakeholders is such a massive part of officiating and can make such a difference to the way that your stakeholders feel about it, but also how you feel about it. Now you touched on the propensity sometimes of officials to dwell on mistakes, but unfortunately, sometimes we do make mistakes just like athletes do. That's, that's what sport is about and why we have officials, really. So how do you support football referees to manage at the time that they actually might make a mistake and then afterwards in in reflection?

Kay Robinson [00:11:16] Yeah. And as you say, it's so important in the refereeing world. All athletes make mistakes, but particularly in a team sport, life carries on. A referee can make a mistake and it it's in the headlines and talked about for the next little while, so I think that's where you know, wellbeing support’s crucial across the board, but a mistake shouldn't be a wellbeing issue if we're dealing with it well because as you say, mistakes happen and we don't want those mistakes to have a wellbeing impact. But sometimes they do. Particularly kind of with the noise and sometimes with other things going on in people's lives. Sometimes a mistake that happens can then uncover other things, but the first thing is done, led by a coach and probably 9 times out of 10. It's talked about, it's reflected on. It's dealt with, but there's always then further support offered if needed. Hopefully the safe, this space is safe to be able to discuss the mistake, discuss some learning points, discuss anything that can be, be done from a team point of view to support them from it happening again, and getting some constructive feedback from both ways. But that deeper feedback might not happen straight away. It's often important to just give some time and space for self-reflection. Ideally, don't leave it too long, because it can then ruminate a little bit. But I know a lot of our small teams themselves will have some feedback immediately in the changing rooms, not necessarily with the coach, but that support of other people who've been through the same situation and were out there at the same time is really needed. So, it's about overcoming disappointment. It's about normalising those mistakes and then looking at some strategies around that and you know, bringing in gratitude and the things that have gone well. A football game is 90 minutes. We usually spend 90% of our time talking about the potential 30 seconds where there's a mistake. So, it's trying to draw out some of the positives from that other 89 1/2 minutes of a game that have probably gone really well is really important. Sometimes this is self-talk and sometimes this is taking self-talk into the next game or again journaling of actually writing. Why? Why are you there? Why are you good at that role? What went well last time? What are your strengths? Just to go out with that positive, positive outlook. And trying to stay in the moment.

Brooke Kneebush [00:13:37] And I can see lots of the suggestions that you're making. There are really self driven and not just about a, you know, a coach or an official person with a wellbeing title which is really important because a lot of our officials in in other sports may not have an officials coach and that the sport itself might not have quite as many resources but, as you said, talking to someone who may have experienced similar can be really useful. What are some other ways that you can seek out those opportunities yourself? Not necessarily through formal channels?

Kay Robinson [00:14:13] Absolutely. I think you know, I understand at community level you might be alone officiating. If you know you're going to be by yourself. Is it that you can have, even if it's somebody not connected with football or somebody there? So, you know, you've got some support. Can you talk through how you're feeling before with somebody in a similar situation or has been in a similar situation? This could be a mentor, I think. Reach out, ask people for support. People don't necessarily offer, but from my experience people are always willing to help and have a chat and that doesn't have to be a weekly formal catch up. It could be an as and when or a quarterly or whatever you decide amongst yourselves. But having someone to talk to and it doesn't just have to be ideally, someone who's going to be your cheerleader, it's probably somebody that can give you some, some constructive criticism, some learnings, but also you know that they've got your back.

Brooke Kneebush [00:15:07] Yeah, great. And getting back to self-reflection, you were talking about not only exploring the areas where you need improvement, but really digging into those areas where you're doing well. Can you talk a bit more about that?

Kay Robinson [00:15:21] Absolutely. And. And we know that positive emotion has greater links with wellbeing as well. So, if you're, if you're feeling positive, you're feeling good, it's likely to have a positive impact. And, and we talked about the we tend to focus on those negatives. And I think historically coaches have as well ultimately and that's where the modern approach is more, let's look at the great things we've done and draw away from everything's technical. So absolutely talk about the positive technical side - really important. There's so many other areas and that can lead back to some of our process goals. Just to widen that view a little bit, can come from positives in communication, like how crucial is communication in refereeing? Whether that's with the players, with the coaches, with your team, with stakeholders, and it probably needs to change, the way you do that for each person you're speaking to, so actually taking learnings from that. Understanding what went well around how you communicated, how you might have diffused a situation, how you spoke. Looking at preparation, you know is your, is your warmup the best it can be you, know are you just how does your day look and I think that, that's an important one to touch on, because it's important to have a routine, but be flexible in that routine as well, so it might be a case of, well, I tried to think slightly different, but that still works, so that's great. So now I know I can. If that creeps into my day, that's fine. So, it might have been seen as a negative that your car broke down that morning for example, but what a positive, that you still got there, you still performed. Everything went smoothly. You're adaptable, you're flexible. So, I think trying to turn all the, as many of the negatives into that. OK, but what, what were the positives I got out of it?

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:10] I imagine it could also help if you were in a mentor relationship with a less experienced official, someone who was aspiring to achieve what you've achieved, those learnings that you've had, it would be great to be able to share how you've overcome the challenges and and how that's impacted your resilience.

Kay Robinson [00:15:29] Absolutely.

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:30] So, you touched on physical health and exercise.

a little bit there. How can they contribute to mental wellbeing? And not all officials actually have physical roles like football officials. For instance, a criteria-based judge is sitting for long, long periods of time. Have you got any tips and tricks for those types of officials as well?

Kay Robinson [00:17:52] Yeah, for sure. So, I think the foundations are good, wellbeing are exercise, sleep and eating well. And we can try and bring all these extra things in. And I know, kind of it's a bit of a buzzword and there's all sorts applying, but so crucial to get those things and I think you know our our football referees are lucky because exercise is a component that they kind of have to do to to be at that level of refereeing. And so that even at community, you know if you're not, you're not doing at least a little bit of training, you're probably going to be struggling on game day. So that I think that kind of helps it ticks off, however, that training is probably not always important for health, mental health and headspace, and it's been it's important to recognise that and sometimes it's a swim or walk by the beach or something that you really value, that might have a better impact on that. But it is hard if you're a referee that or an official or a judge that, you're spending a whole day inside a building and you don't have the opportunity to exercise, and that's not part of your role. That's another thing that you have to add in to your probably job and family and social connections and travel and all the other things. So, it's trying to make it a habit and a routine.as whether it be every day that's often unfeasible, and people set that every day mark and go can't do it too hard, so it's it's starting small. It's going once a week. I'm going to set my alarm 45 minutes earlier to get up and do this. Routine is really important. Routines really hard when you're travelling, so I'd say start small and if you can start something but tick some other boxes. Whether it's being outside, if you're stuck inside all day or you know something that involves a little bit of breath work, so swimming's great for that. I think from your point of judging, it's really hard to sit still for a long time and maintain focus. And I think you know, we're seeing that a little bit more with with VAR. These people that are doing VAR are usually very active on the pitch moving all the time and now have a role that involves sitting down. Trying to have little movement breaks, and that doesn't need to be stand up and go for a run. Its, stand up and sit down and stand up three times, even if you've only got 15 seconds or stand up, see if you can get outside, take a few breaths. So, when you are sat in that chair or sat on a pool deck, which can be really hot, you know, all those environments aren't great for our cognition Usually, we're really focused and astute. It's absolutely not easy.

Brooke Kneebush [00:20:28] Great. Thank you. Let’s take a a bit of a different tack now. So, we know that officials are sometimes concerned about dealing with difficult stakeholders. It might be unruly spectators, angry coaches, frustrated players and I do want to flag here that this type of behaviour towards officials is, is not OK. Perpetrators of disrespectful treatment toward officials need to be held to account and, and the Australian Sports Commission and national sporting organisations like Football Australia, they are certainly working hard to prevent these behaviours. But what are some tools that you recommend officials equip themselves with to manage challenging situations when they do arise?

Kay Robinson [00:21:06] Absolutely. And a challenging one that I wish I wish we didn't have to discuss, but absolutely we I think we see it across all sports and at all levels and potentially even more impactful at that community level because you don't necessarily have such support structures around you. So, and I think not trying to take that on as something that the individual official should be having to deal with. A lot of people have come up to me since I've been in the role and said “What are you gonna do about match official abuse?” And I'm like, “well, what's society gonna do and what's the football ecosystem?” One person, I'm I can support the referees, but it it's a much bigger picture and I think it's important for officials to understand that, that it's almost not their job to change people's behaviours. Like there, there are things that they can do, and I think bottom line at whatever level you are, it's understanding the things that you can do. So, what’s in your power to control this and I know in some areas we've got a few new things coming in and there's the sin bins coming in in areas of football and things. So, it's actually having a clear understanding of what you can do and trying to do that at the right time. Just trying to, I guess, empower all our officials to use those tools effectively. So it does have an impact, but things like sending off, stopping play. Speaking up, reporting. I think understanding what's there and hopefully as a collective doing as much as we can to minimise that behavior.

Kay Robinson [00:22:37] Having, having a strong support system in place is crucial, and that's inside and outside football at higher up level, you're more likely to have kind of support from a system, but potentially at grassroots it's finding that support from family, friends, mentors, people at the member federation or state system, or community level that you know that they've got your back and hopefully well if you don't feel comfortable to speak up, they might be able to and and then as we've said, unfortunately these things happen. So, it's having strategies in place to try and minimise the effect it has on you. And this might be talking, you know, a lot of people go just want to talk it through, get it off my chest and can move on. It might be drawing on those positives. The things that did go well and not letting get overshadowed one episode overshadow what's been a really good game. And you know, the 90% of people who've been appreciative of your work. And I think generally there are a lot of people who are, but they're not the ones that shout out from the stands. And obviously at the more elite level, you're going to have social media impact and it it's looking at ways to some people go - not gonna have any, any impact with social media. Not gonna read it. Not gonna use it. I think as the younger generation comes through, that's almost not possible for them. So, it's being able to advise how, how they can minimise the impact it has.

Brooke Kneebush [00:24:06] And the great news is that there's actually some new rules and laws around social media coming, not soon enough, but hopefully there's a brighter future there. OK, so officiating can be intense. We've, we've talked about difficult situations, but it might be that there's an important competition you're officiating, like a grand final or a selection event, or there might be prize money involved. And we know, you know, sometimes officials do make mistakes, and then when you add to that, juggling a job family, study it all really adds up. How can officials juggle all these balls in the air at the same time. Well, what are some ways that we can help them to cope and thrive.

Kay Robinson [00:24:49] Wish I had the magic bullet for this one Brooke. But it's absolutely a challenge and everyone's got different, different competing needs and wants and people around them that want different things from them. A way that we often talk about it is it's OK to have different things. I think really, you know, we understand that and hopefully everyone around us does, as well. Ensuring that you do you do with intent, whether that's family time, whether that's work, whether that's officiating and knowing your processes around each of those things is really crucial. So, it's OK if you have family time, you don't need to be thinking about officiating, but when you're on the field, that's when you need to be thinking about officiating. And you know some little, some work around, now, a lot of people I've spoken to have found it quite challenging to go from work straight to training and almost have that real shift in what they should be doing, and I, I heard an interview with a doctor not long ago who was a pediatrician and then would go home to his family and found that transition time really hard. And he always talked about having a cape. So, at work he has his cape and he almost, he started almost physically taking this make-believe cape off to go - OK, now I'm a Dad. And we talk about the same thing. For officials, it's a case of once that uniform’s on, you're an official. So, you've got that real separation. Because it's hard. We all know we come home from work and we're thinking about things we need to be doing. But if you're an official and you're out on a game that night, that's potentially going to impact performance. So, it's trying to find some strategies to have that, that separation and that might even be time that might be a I'm going to sit for 5 minutes. I'm just gonna breathe or listen to some music or do something that is a little bit of a circuit breaker between two things, but it is challenging and sometimes communicating those other things that are going on in your life can be beneficial, whether that's with a coach or mentor or a friend. Anyone really.

Brooke Kneebush [00:27:48] I love the analogy of the, the make-believe cape I, I actually do a similar thing and I'm an actress going on stage and everything else is out of mind while I'm out there doing what I do and then like you said, sometimes the minute you step off the field or or whatever it is, it's right back into it, but that's OK and it's almost like being out there, doing your thing is like taking a break. And sometimes if you if you're able to switch on and off like that, it can be really empowering.

Kay Robinson [00:27:17] Think is a really powerful skill to be able to do that as well, and again it takes practice like the other things and sometimes it won't work, but you build up that practice potentially in different, training for example. So, you have the skills going into a game day to do that.

Brooke Kneebush [00:27:32] Yeah, absolutely. So, we've talked about some challenges with officiating, but actually officiating can be really rewarding as well, and that's why we we do it, isn't it? And it can often actually contribute to positive wellbeing. So, what are some reasons that the referees you work with, enjoy what they do? Why do they keep coming back and how does officiating make their lives better?

Kay Robinson [00:27:56] Ohh so many ways and I think I've been really lucky to get such a great insight into some of these since I've been in my role, and I think there's a lot about giving back to the game and being part of football, which people love and have such a passion for. It can be a way to stay involved in a game as well. It helps develop the game. You know, we don't have referees, we don't, we don't have a game, Ultimately. I think speaking to a lot of our, our female officials, they're such role models for the future generation and support for the future generation and they get so much from that. A huge thing about working alongside peers connections, great friends and those that are on our FIFA panel, it often comes back to again just learning new cultures, connections, understanding people more is such a driver for spending many hours away from family and having unpaid leave from work. But you know that that travel and experiencing in new cultures is is such a huge pull at that level. And I think you know, one of one of the key, key things around wellbeing is that feeling of belonging in connection and how good is sport for that ultimately? Whether that's coaching, refereeing, playing, physioing being involved brings you that sense of belonging connection. So that's, that's huge amongst our referees. And it's a great way to combine physical and mental fitness as well. And you know, keep, keep cognitively ticking as well as the, the physical training component. And you know, I think the skills you develop can can pay you back for so many years to come. I know the, the World Economic Forum just released a, a least of kind of the top skills that they'll be looking for in in 2025. And it aligns so beautifully with referees. So even if it's at a community level and these referees and officials aren't looking to go to the, the highest level, the things that they can develop in leadership and communication are just so crucial for the rest of their life.

Brooke Kneebush [00:30:03] My yeah, for sure. I absolutely agree with you about those skills that particularly young people just getting started in officiating, the way that they can develop as people for whatever it is they go on to do for the rest of their life. It's, it's actually so exciting, but we need to get away now, Kay. But before we sign off, we did just want to offer some aftercare messages. Kay, we've spoken a lot about wellbeing today. What final suggestion do you have for officials to look after themselves?

Kay Robinson [00:30:35] I think ultimately, it's OK to say you're not OK and trying to find someone that's trusted that you can within your sport or outside your sport that then you can reach out to. And I think sport has, has that responsibility to provide that person and that space. I think there's people out there willing to support, and there's always, there's always strategies. There's always things that can be done. It's not so black and white that you must do this, this and this. But communication is key and sometimes potentially missing a training or missing a game is gonna be much more beneficial than forcing you out there. So it's fine to, we all have bad days and good days and, and try and communicate that as much as possible.

Brooke Kneebush [00:31:21] Thank you and remember help is available. It's important to seek support early if you find stress or anxiety starting to impact your daily life. Consult a GP, mental health professional or a mental health organisation such as Beyond Blue. If you require urgent support, call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Or if someone’s safety is in danger, call 000.

Thank you for sharing your time with us, Kay, and for your insights into the theme of How you improve for officials with a modern approach.

Kay Robinson [00:31:52] Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

Brooke Kneebush [00:31:54] And thanks to our audience for listening. To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission’s Community Officiating web page.

I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:32:08] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Transcript

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brook Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is Who you officiate. This includes understanding modern participants, their varied motivations and needs, the flexibility required, and role of officials in these being fulfilled. Today I'm joined by Jacqui Jashari, who is an international and all Australian netball umpire and is currently on the Asian International Testing Panel for World Netball. Her day job has a rather long title, being Director, Sport Development and Engagement, Sport and Recreation with the Western Australian Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries. She also has many other strings to her bow, which we’ll no doubt hear about in today's podcast. So Jacqui, thank you for joining us.

Jacqui Jashari [00:01:08] Thank you very much for having me, Brooke. I'm here, in Boorloo, which is Perth in Western Australia, on the banks of the Derbarl Yerrigan. And I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, the Whadjuk people of the Noongar, and pay my respect to Elders past, present and emerging.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:25] Thanks very much, Jacqui. So, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be a netball umpire and your involvement from community right through to international?

Jacqui Jashari [00:01:37] Like everybody else, I started playing sport very young. I wanted to play lots of sports, so I was very fortunate. My dad was very sporty, and so he encouraged me to just play any sport that I wanted to. So, the list of sports I played was lacrosse. I did calisthenics, I did tap dancing, I did netball, I did basketball, I played a little bit of hockey, which I was not too good at. And then I decided, well, you know, I can try all those sports, but what was I most interested in? And what were the ones that I thought I could be fairly good at? So, I honed my skills into basketball and netball, becoming, state league basketball player, would you believe, and not so good at netball. But I ended up playing netball and coaching netball and ultimately umpiring netball. So, I started my journey down at Fremantle Netball Association. Then once I got a little bit older and I had children, I decided I'd do a bit of coaching. So, I dabbled in that for a bit. And then I was actually, you know, told, well, you got to go out there. It's part of your duties, as we all know, as a volunteer. So, I did go out and umpire and I was identified, as having a little bit of talent. And therein kind of started my journey in umpiring. So, and since then it's led me through to an international career, which has been fantastic. It's been, not not a long, long journey, but I think I say ten years of deliberate practice to get, you know, from community up to, you know, perhaps the elite level. So, you know, I was really fortunate when I was at Fremantle, I had some, you know, great role models down there, some beautiful mentors, and I and I loved it. You know, I just really enjoyed the social aspect.

And then I was kind of fast tracked into our WA Netball league. So, I went through my badge levels and I think the first season of WA Netball League, I got one game and I was over the moon. So, it was about a ten week season and I managed to knock one game in and wasn't invited back again. So, I think that just made me more determined. So went back to my association and you know, really, really worked hard there and then went through, got my all-Australian badge and then determined again, took me 6 years to get my international badge. So, you know, bunkered down and very determined to get that badge. So, I did. And since then, you know, I've been fortunate. It's. Taking me around the world, I've umpired at World Championships and Commonwealth Games. And met some wonderful people. And then it was a natural thing for me when I came off the court was to contribute, you know, back. So, I went back and started coaching umpires both at Community level, you know, WA Netball league and then national and international level. So, you know, it was just a natural experience. For me to do that and to go back and and give back, I guess.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:26] Thanks for that. And I really liked hearing about the determination. And it actually seems like quite a common theme with some, some other officials who have eventually made it to a really high level but have had to face challenges along the way. And you talked a little bit about back in the day, I think that you and I, it was quite similar ages. Now, the world's changed a lot since, since you and I first became involved in sport as children and even sport itself has changed. And and that's really why the, the Sports Commission is leading this modern approach to transform the sporting experience and encourage more people to participate, officiate, coach and physically enjoy sport. What are some of the most significant changes that you've noticed in your role as netball umpire, and also in all the other work that you do?

Jacqui Jashari [00:05:13] Yeah, we see, you know, there's lots of trends that we see broadly across, you know, Western Australia. And I think the and in netball too, I think you know people are very time you know, very time poor. And so, the the way people want to consume, you know, sport and recreation and how they want to get involved in it is very different. You know, from when I was involved very at a very young age, it was a Saturday afternoon thing. And that's when you did it. And you're trying once a week and away you went. Whereas, you know, now I think, you know, everybody wants to consume it differently. So, you know, I love the way the modern, officiating and coaching approach, you know, talks about experience and environment, because it really resonates with me. And I think you stay involved because of that experience, and you stay involved because the right environment is created for you. Which I think is getting back to the challenge piece that you mentioned before. You know, it's not going to be smooth sailing. And you're going to get challenges, but I think people have different motivations, you know, to stay involved. They want to stay active. They don't want, you know, organised sport all the time. So, you know, there's a cost of sport as well. I think, you know, that's change for people too. So that's that's a bit of a challenge, you know, across many sports as well. And so, and the demand and commitments to sport is really critical.

Brooke Kneebush [00:06:30] Yeah. Great. And now you talked a little bit about your time in sport. Oh I wasn't that good. You actually sound a little bit like me I, I had the same sort of passion you had, but it was for gymnastics and I although I didn't make state level or anything like that, I absolutely loved it. I just couldn't get enough of it. And I actually went on to become a, you know, an official and a coach and was able to maintain that passion, just like you have. But I think often we, we assume people are in it to win. And it just is not always the case. Yes, some people are. And yes, winning is nice sometimes. But, what are some of the motivations for people you officiate for playing sport and, whether that be at the community level or even at the international level, what are some of those motivations?

Jacqui Jashari [00:07:24] I think, you know, being fit, you know, fitness is is a big motivation for people, you know, and then if they enjoy the game, they're playing the sport they're playing, they're going to to want to stay involved. And I think motivations are around, you know, people some people want to get to the top. So, they want to, you know, you know, participate in sport at an Olympics or a Commonwealth Games or World Championships, you know. And so, I think their motivation is when I look across my kind of spectrum of coming from kind of community right through that, you know, everyone has a different motivation. It's fun, it's enjoyment. It's, no pressure, you know, and being able to manage and cope with the pressure. I think coaches play a big part in that. So, whether they be umpire coaches or coaches of athletes, I think, you know, they're motivators, you know, for people to stay involved. So, I think, having good coaches, not just as technical coaches, but, you know, motivate, motivators and understanding the needs of the players and the umpires. You know, I try, from my experience, I try and get to know the umpires and understand, you know, their individuality, I guess, because they all have different motivations, different needs, different reasons why they’re involved, different reasons why they can't come week in, week out.

Brooke Kneebush [00:08:39] And then. So, we've got the motivations on the one hand. And then people might have different needs. So, they might be young, you know, they might just be learning the rules or they might be coming back from injury or illness. What what are some of the different participant needs that you've come across as an official?

Jacqui Jashari [00:08:57] Probably the best thing, and I teach this to this day, is that umpires, it doesn't matter what level you are at, you should go and experience different, you know, different levels of umpiring, different people with different needs, you know, umpiring, men's netball, you know, perhaps going down. You know, we have the, the disability team here too as well. So go down and do that, go to as many different carnivals as you can, can multicultural things, all those types of things. So, I think, you know, it's it's about adapting as an umpire. So, you know, umpires that are just, you know, you have those umpires that are very technical, and they could read the rulebook inside out, but it's about how they bring, their personality, and their approach to be able to adapt to the needs of the players and the coaches. And so how you approach that is really important. I think if you can't adapt, then you're going to get some challenges and issues across that. So, I think it's being aware of that. You know, we, you know, with females now, it's great females can play, you know, when they're pregnant. So, I think that's really important, you know, and building, building that understanding rapport, that relationship, both with, you know, again, players and coaches and umpires.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:04] You're from Western Australia and I've spent quite a bit of time in far north Western Australia myself, and I know that sport goes on in some pretty remote places in such a big state. Are there some unique motivations for people across your state or remote Australia. And what about unique solutions to officiating challenges?

Jacqui Jashari [00:10:25] I think, you know, sport brings communities together. So, they're that thread that brings the community in every, probably country town in WA you can drive in and you see a bowling club, you know, you might see a multi-use recreation centre and you’ll see a swimming pool. So, it is often the place where people go to socialise, they meet all their friends, all those types of things. So, but with that they bring unique challenges. So, we have the far north, you know, the Kimberley, the Pilbara. And it's about facilities too. So, what's available in the facility. And I think the heat is a is a factor. And so generally they'll play at night, or they'll play in an indoor centre because of the heat. So, and I've lived in Kalgoorlie. So, I lived in the Eastern Goldfields for five years. So I played netball, played all sports up there and the facilities. Can remember the potholes in the netball court, you know, those types of things. So, but we played, and so it was just about adapting. It's really about knowing when people want to play sport, how they play it, where they play it. And it's very unique across Western Australia. So, but, but you know, there's opportunities for everyone to be involved. And umpiring is the same. We have regional academies for umpires and umpires coming through pathways and development pathways, which is critical.

Brooke Kneebush [00:11:39] Yeah. And it is a great way for communities to come together, people to come from outside of those towns and come centrally together and connect as, as you you've talked about there.

Jacqui Jashari [00:11:49] Yeah. And I think Brooke too to add to that is, you know, most, most states will have their state championships or their country regional championships. So everybody from the region, you know, will come into Perth. And they do it in Victoria and other places. And I can remember playing in Kalgoorlie and it was a big, you know, big event on the calendar to come to Perth on the bus and play all the other, you know, regional towns etc. And it was a big thing. So those opportunities are great and they're things you don't ever forget.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:17] And they’re where friendships are made for life aren’t they you, keep those friends going on and on.

Jacqui Jashari [00:12:23] Yeah, 100%.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:24] So with all your years of experience officiating. How do you go about trying to get to know the participants and try to understand these different motivations and needs? What sort of opportunities do you have to interact and engage?

Jacqui Jashari [00:12:44] Yeah, it's really important. Again, from my experience, I again teach the same thing to the umpires I work with. It's about taking the opportunities. You go to training sessions so you might stand around at a training session, but you're there listening to the coach, listening to the instructions that are given to the players. You get an opportunity maybe now and then to blow whistle or to, you know, call out stepping all those types of things. But you get to interact, you know, with the players without a pressure situation. So that's how you build that rapport and build those relationships. You know, in the first instance I think it's being approachable as well. So, you know, during a game or if they'd like to come up and talk to you at quarter time, half time or after a game, it's about how you approach that scenario. I always again had another saying is that, you know, I needed to earn the respect of the players. It was really important that I did that. It was important to me. But also, they needed to earn my respect. And so it was a two way kind of situation. So, working hard at that is really important. I think, you know, talking to coaches as much as you can, and understanding what they're trying to do with their players, but also calling out, when you need to, you know, behaviours and things like that with the players and having a, you know, a good conversation. I would always have a ten second rule. So, if I was approached, I would listen. Listening is really important as we know. So, I would always listen to, you know, what the what the I guess the question was or what they wanted to get across and then try and think, you know, calmly about my response, which is really good. So, I guess it's about, you know, building that rapport doesn't matter, whether it's on a Saturday afternoon or it's in an international level or where it is, having a rapport with coaches is really critical, you know, at all levels. I think that's the case sometimes because they feel comfortable to talk to you and ask you for clarification on things. So, it's not easy.

Brooke Kneebush [00:14:34] And no doubt making those good relationships with the coaches would rub off on their players because the the players would see, oh well the coach is respecting this official and and you know, the coach obviously thinks that they're being, you know, reasonable. So therefore, perhaps I can.

Jacqui Jashari [00:14:50] Yeah. And I think too with that the players didn't feel comfortable, and they might be a little bit cross or a little bit, upset by your decision or whatever, but they'll come up and they'll ask it in a nice way usually, and you can have a decent conversation around it. You can agree to disagree, and that's okay. But it's it's about how you how you do that and, how you create that relationship. And so, they feel comfortable doing it. But I think too, with umpiring, you know, umpires need to be humble. And sometimes, you don't see that, because, you know, they, they, don't want to recognise that they've made a mistake or, and I've done that. I've got a great example of where that happened to me when I was umpiring, you know, the National League and, I made a mistake and, of course, it was in the paper for three days. I think about this critical mistake that I made, but I, I thought, no, I've got to go stay here, and I've got to go to the training session with the coach, and the players and and talk through it. And so, I gave the opportunity at the end for them all to talk to me about that. And they talked about that. And I just admitted that, yes, you were right. I made a mistake, and I was in this is why I made the mistake. I was in the wrong place, wrong time, looking at the wrong thing. And I went. Oh. Okay. So, examples of that are really, really important in umpires. You know, being able to do that and to be able to, you know, say that they've made a mistake or whatever is really important.

Brooke Kneebush [00:16:16] And interesting that you made one mistake and appeared in the paper for three days. And yet, sport has officials because players make mistakes all the time.

Jacqui Jashari [00:16:26] Yes, yes, yes. Well very true. You know, you see it with all sports don't you. You know, and it's just and so why is that one decision that is, you know, I think I don't know what the stats are think in a netball game. I think there might be something like 15,000 decisions or something like that, you know, and they're not whistle decisions. They're what you process in your head. And is that a contact, or isn't it? And is that this and that? So, you know, all in a matter of three seconds while the players got the ball. So, yeah, it's there's quite a few decisions to make.

Brooke Kneebush [00:16:54] So now can you think of some sort of practical ways that you can make sure that participant motivations and needs are met? Are there some sort of practical things that you can do?

Jacqui Jashari [00:17:05] Well, I think, you know, number one, you know, we all have responsibilities to make sure it's enjoyable. So, I think that's just number one. And that's in about the way you talk and what you say is really important. So, changing your tone. So, if you need to get something across, your tone might change. Or if you, you can have a giggle and a laugh in a game and that's okay. And often, you know, placed on here, you can call them by their names. I think being inclusive. Is really important. So, make everybody feel comfortable. That's true. And, you know, go to a game. Say hello. Be friendly. Make everyone feel comfortable. And then that kind of breaks the ice a little bit. So, they're kind of easy wins, I think. And again, it's just that positive environment. So, I can't kind of reiterate that enough. I think that's really important and making people feel relaxed. So, when we have young umpires, and we assume. They come out to our National League, you know, WA, netball league and we assume they're confident. And it might be their first game and they're so scared. But you know, we're not tuned into that. And so, we just assume that they are comfortable. So, it's those little things I think that to say how are you feeling. You know what's going through your mind. You know all those types of things I think safety is important too. So, ensuring that, you know, protection of players, you know, protection of umpires, I think is really important all round. And so, there are obviously some general trends that, you know, across concussion and the like. And so, I think it's important that, we understand around that. Also, you know, integrity, sport integrity is really important as well. So that's you know, key and people being aware of that and what that means. Making the playing environment fair and equitable, I think is also, you know, paramount. And we can influence that, as well. You know, I think looking at learners and, you know, older adults and their needs are different. And how do we, you know, support them in what they're trying to do as well?

Brooke Kneebush [00:18:57] Great. And can you actually adapt the way that you officiate to make people feel included and respected and, and accepted? Are there ways that you can do it when you're on the court with the whistle?

Jacqui Jashari [00:19:09] Yeah, absolutely. I think you can. I think, it is, you know, we often talk in Netball. There's a quiet word. So, everyone talks, you know talks about it being something different. It's just a verbal kind of chat with a player to say, oh, you need to probably stop doing that, or don't go offside so much or, and giving them that encouragement to say, you know, don't keep doing that. Let's let's adjust. Let's adapt so that we're not penalising you all the time. So in in netball umpiring, there's those types of things. Just you hear it in football a bit too, when the umpire will say move, move back off the mark or do this or do that. And I think there's ways we can do that. I think coming down to a community level to, you know, I umpired a little, junior game once because they had no one to umpire it. And so, I thought, oh, you know, piece of cake, I'll get out there and do that. And it was, for me, probably one of the hardest games I've ever umpired with. You know, the kids were all running at the ball and then that'd all run away. And then they wouldn't listen to me. And, and so it was just really getting, you know, stopping the game and getting down to their level and to say, right, kids, you know, you were coaching and umpiring. So, it's like you run off over there and you run off over there. And so, it was just about really adapting the way you talk, what you do, how you interact and what you're able to do at the different levels.

Brooke Kneebush [00:20:20] Yeah. And you talked about, umpiring the little ones. I always think as a gymnastics judge, we put the the learner judges on the learner gymnasts who make all sorts of mistakes, and you see things and you can barely recognise it as a skill, and then you have to figure out what the rules are around that. Whereas it would be easier if we started off officiating, the more experienced participants first and then worked our way down to those beginners.

Jacqui Jashari [00:20:48] Yeah. And it's probably, you know, part of our development here with our kind of state league umpires is we will often move from between levels of games, because they are challenged. And then they'll come off and go gosh, you know, that that level game was so hard. And I said, yeah, it's a lot harder because your skills and techniques, they don't change, but it's how you apply them that changes. And so, it really makes a really rounded umpire. And actually, they they might go back a little bit to go forward, which is a really good way to develop.

Brooke Kneebush [00:21:13] And then also get that experience of officiating alongside other officials of, of different levels as well.

Jacqui Jashari [00:21:20] Yeah. We often will put a very inexperienced umpire with a more experienced umpire. It's no different from what they do with their players on the court. So, you know, and we get that buy in from them. So, it's good. And I think also with coaches. So, I've really, you know, tried to build relationships so that I can be impactful to help them help their team in terms of, you know, understanding the rules. So, Stacey Marinkovich, the coach of the Diamonds, Stacey was based here with Fever for a while and we, you know, we we got to know each other really well. And I'd often get a phone call to say, Jacqui, can you just have a look at this video? Like, I need you to explain this to me, you know, and so we would had that kind of relationship, which helped her bring a better experience for her players. And I was impactful in terms of supporting that. So always be open, you know, to have those conversations and to go into trainings and be, you know, help players directly. So often I would go in and just talk to the players about certain things they were doing. I think Courtney Bruce, being here at The Fever for so long. So, we, you know, we built a good relationship and were able to talk about a lot of things and talk about ways that, you know, look at videos and talk about ways that, you know, she could reduce penalties, for instance, or do do different things technically better so that, you know, umpires would understand what she was trying to do. And they were some great experiences. I had some, you know, not all good experiences, but I think, you know, I think always managed to work through, you know, any challenges with players and, you know, build that relationship often just having a laugh in the hallway or, you know, behind and, you know, having a general chat about stuff other than netball, you know, and so I think, you know, I had some you know, it's probably been a great journey in terms of those friends, both players and coaches. So, yeah, some some really good experiences, I think. And hopefully I had I had had an impact, and hopefully, you know, they've respected probably what I hopefully brought to the game and brought to umpiring as well.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Fantastic. Oh, wow. That's just wonderful. Jacqui, thank you so much for sharing. And and thank you for joining us today and sharing your insights into the theme of Who you officiate, understanding the modern participant. Thank you also to our audience for listening.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush, and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

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Annabelle White [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White. I'm joining you from Eora Country, and I am the Coaching Advisor for the Coaching and Officiating team at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Today we will be discussing ACL injuries. We will be discussing more about the injury itself and its prevalence amongst women and girls. We will explore the personal impact of the injury and discuss prevention strategies that coaches can implement into trainings and game days.

We are lucky today to welcome Brooke Patterson and Kamahl Cogdon to the podcast. Kamahl is an enthusiastic footy player who suffered an ACL rupture in 2022. She's yet to make her return to the field but has remained engaged in coaching positions at Blackburn Football and Waverly Park Hawks.

Brooke is a Physiotherapist and Research Fellow at La Trobe University Sport and Exercise Research Centre. Brooke is also a former AFLW player and development coach and has also suffered an ACL injury in her time.

To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Brooke and Kamahl, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast today who have both a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Welcome.

Kamahl Cogdon [00:01:27] Thanks Annabelle.

Brooke Patterson [00:01:29] Thanks Annabelle. Thanks for having me.

Annabelle White [00:01:31] So, Brooke, in your work, you have researched ACL injuries amongst women and girls in sport both elite and in community settings. Can you explain what an ACL injury is?

Brooke Patterson [00:01:41] Yeah, sure. The ACL or the anterior cruciate ligament it's like a really tough ligament. Kind of like a rope that connects your shin bone to your thigh bone. And it's inside your knee joint. And essentially, without getting too technical, that helps keep your knee stable and it kind of events that shin bone from sliding forward and backwards and also rotating around a little bit. But what I think is important to know that it's only one of many ligaments inside and outside the knee that help keep the knee stable, as well as like your muscles as well help with stability. Which is why actually you might hear of some people who might be able to cope without actually needing surgery to repair a torn ACL, as they have those other structures that can help provide that stability. And when it gets injured, it's when essentially when the forces become too, too high, like kind of like a sprained ankle, but just inside the knee and the ligaments either strained or completely ruptured in half or it partially tears.

Annabelle White [00:02:39] Are there common ways that someone might tear their ACL?

Brooke Patterson [00:02:42] Yes. Well, the most common sports that we start there are when there's high speed running, cutting, pivoting and jumping. So if you think about all your different types of football codes, court sports such as netball, handball, basketball, skiing's another common one, outside of that team sport setting and they can occur kind of each motor vehicle accidents are in the workplace as well. But mostly we're talking about kind of team ball sports here today. So the majority of ACL injuries are what we call non-contact. So that means that there's no direct contact between the injured person and any other player or piece of equipment. So the typical one is, say, the player running out in open space, no one around them, and either changing direction or coming to like an abrupt stop or reacting to something that's happening on the field. And the knee just kind of collapses and they go down in, in a heap. Or they might be landing from one leg after a jump. So say a marking contest or receiving a pass, or from a header in soccer, or even just after kicking the ball, that kind of action of landing on one leg. So they are the non-contact situation. Some of the injuries are also what we called indirect contact. So quite similar situations on the field. But there is some contact from another player, whether it's the opponent or their teammate. So they might be going up for a mark or pass and they get a little slight bump in the air or on the way down. I guess the good thing about these indirect and non-contact injuries is that they tend to lend themselves to being more preventable, so they're often related to the way you know that the player is balanced when they land on one leg or the way they respond to contact in the air, or the way that their footwork is when they approach, a tackle or a contest. And then of course, those contact injuries. So, for example, when a player falls over another player's knee and kind of pushes it inwards. And for these mechanisms, sometimes there isn't too much we can do about it. And we know that injuries are just a part of sport. But we also know that the benefits of sport, usually outweigh, those, those risks. So I think for those contact injuries, I think we can still think about the stronger, more skilful the player in their sport and more aware of the things that are around them. They can potentially still avoid some of those situations. Like, you know, the way that they stand up in the tackle or roll with the tackle, so that's the kind of three main mechanisms. I guess the only other thing to add is they're often in defensive situations. So if you're a coach and you're training a lot of offence and training and drills designed around offence, you might not actually be exposing the players to the defensive reactive situation. So obviously when you've got the ball, you're a little bit more in control of what's happening. But if you're reacting and defending, that's when a lot of these injuries happen as well.

Annabelle White [00:05:27] Kamahl I’ll come to you. You suffered an ACL injury playing a sport that you loved a few years ago. Tell us about your injury.

Kamahl Cogdon [00:05:34] Yes, I did a complete rupture of my left ACL in my left knee. I was one of those unlucky people who mine was a contact injury. So I was being tackled and I thought it was really interesting what Brooke said about learning to roll with the tackle. I think in hindsight, I tried to stand up through the tackle and keep running. Probably not having had enough training along how to, yeah, how to roll and how to go with the tackle. So I did feel that pop, almost like a release. I didn't hear it, but I felt it, and it was almost that itself didn't seem painful, but by the time I hit the ground, it was excruciating. I also tore my meniscus. So, I think there was a lot of pain with that. I had two meniscal tears. And I just, I was carried off to the off of the, the grounds and sat on the side of the, of the the oval and watched the rest of the game in quite a lot of pain, until somebody came and picked me up and took me off to hospital and, and then the the rest is history, I suppose. I had surgery two weeks later. Again, in hindsight, I'm not sure if that was that was necessarily the best thing to do. I had a hamstring graft and it's been a pretty, torturous rehab for me unfortunately, it's, taken quite some time. I've had a few ups and downs which, you know, you kind of expect it's we know, recovery is not linear. And everyone says that to you when you, when you set out on the recovery journey. But, it those, those highs are quite good. But the lows can be quite deep too. So it's been very challenging. But, I'm coming through the other end slowly.

Annabelle White [00:07:19] Brooke, listening to Kamahl's story, what would put someone at a higher risk of suffering an ACL rupture or injury?

Brooke Patterson [00:07:26] Yeah. So it's the $65 million question, Annabelle. There's lots of, I guess, different factors that play into someone's risk of sustaining any injury. And in particular ACLs, there's, a big variety of factors that might play into it. But the only kind of two factors that we have strong scientific scientific evidence for is being female, born a female, and having a previous ACL injury. So it's like any injury, if if you've had one of them, you know, you're risk for having another one is is fairly, a lot higher than the rest. The other one that's probably close behind that with some moderate evidence is family history. But unfortunately, all those things I'm listing off, we can't do much about, which, is no good for coaches, no good for athletes. But there are a whole other range of things, that we can kind of modify that have shown some links to, to injury risk as well. So if we think about, you know, the way that people move, you know, their muscle strength and control, your training schedule or your training load or any training plans, footwear and ground, body weight, your general like, health and well-being and kind of all the things impacting the immediate athlete on the, on the field that we can modify with coaching and training. And then there's all the things on the outside of the field. So, if we think about that being that the training environment, the competition environment, the coaches, that the clubs, the leagues and how they can actually influence what's going on in the field. And so that's kind of access to resources and education that can actually help, that athlete, you know, minimise all of those potential risk factors.

Annabelle White [00:09:14] Brooke, you mentioned being born female is going to put someone at a higher risk of suffering this kind of injury. And we've seen a lot in the news of high-profile athletes like Ellie Carpenter, Sam Kerr, Katrina Gorry suffering these injuries in the last few years. The NRL saw ten season ending knee injuries, and nine AFL players in the 2023 season tore their ACL. What does put women at a higher risk of suffering this injury?

Brooke Patterson [00:09:44] If we think about the things that we can't modify, we'll kind of knock them off first, is the, some of the anatomy factors. So women have potentially, some women, have different size and shaped, ligaments and, and bony structure. There's some thought around hormonal changes as well at certain times of the month. There might be a change in, in your collagen, which is in your ligaments, and that might put you at greater risk. Again, when we go and talk to to coaches, about these because it's a common question, right. We try and kind of get away from that notion that it's, and it's more than hips and hormones. That the hips, you might have heard as well is, because we've got kind of wider childbearing, keeps the angle of the thigh bones coming down, kind of puts more strain on the knee. So we try and we put a big slide up saying it's more than hips and hormones because that's what you hear in the media a bit. And we try and talk about all those other things like the movement patterns, the muscle strain, the training load and the plans and and getting the resources and the support around women. Those injury rates, I guess, have probably been there for a long time in terms of women being greater risk. It's just getting more and more attention now. And I think the professionalism of those competitions are going up, which is great, but that also means they're running at higher speeds. They're putting more load through their bodies.

Annabelle White [00:11:08] Kamahl listening to Brooke, then, particularly around the environmental factors that she's listed that put women at a higher risk of suffering injury to any of those resonate with you and your experience?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:11:17] Yeah, definitely. When I first saw my surgeon, I’ll just throw this in, he actually said that, women were keeping him in business. So that's how prevalent it is out there. It's not something I really wanted to hear at the time. But, but in terms of, I guess, the environment, my preparation at the time probably wasn't at its peak. I just it was a post-season, competition that we just thought we'd enter for fun. And I'd been away. I'd had five weeks overseas eating cheese and drinking wine and, not doing very much running. So I came back and thought, oh, why not? I'll play round robin of three games. And I think it was the second time that I was injured in, so definitely, I mean, some of that falls on the athlete themselves to, to prepare as best they can. But I think there's also a lot that, club land can do to support that. As I said before, I don't think certainly in my case, I don't feel that I had, I mean, we practised, tackling, of course, but never it was always as the tackler, not the person being tackled. So there were gaps, from my knowledge, missing. So there's that. And strength and conditioning was never like, and you know, yes, a lot of the girls do go to the gym. And I always thought for me, my game, I built my game around my running. So I was playing on the wing and I could run all day, so I was really, really fit. But I just thought, oh, the gym's kind of, you know, that's not really for me. I'm all about running. And in hindsight, I now, I mean, I always knew, but I didn't appreciate fully how important that strength and conditioning could be.

Brooke Patterson [00:13:09] You picked up on something, Kamahl, that I didn't, I kind of forgot to mention. Is that, yeah, sport-specific skill. So particularly, I think for the football codes where we're seeing these [at] higher rates. They are sports that women and girls haven't played traditionally in their formative years. And even if they are playing in their formative years, I mean, you know, under twelves onwards, even before that, this is a societal thing. They come into that organised sport setting already playing catch up because and the way that they develop is physically different to boys. So you touched on the ability to kind of roll and fall. We see that really commonly and in girls in particular, not being able to kind of go to ground and be confident to just fall on the shoulder of the body. And so they leave the arm out or the legs kind of get all caught up. So, yeah, they just, you know, just in society, girls don't kind of wrestle and roll around as, as much as boys, through through school as well. So I think that's a big reason why we're seeing those differences in injury rates as well.

Annabelle White [00:14:11] So, Kamahl, you started your footy career a few years ago, you mentioned to me on the phone, can you tell us a bit more about what drew you to the sport?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:14:19] Sure. Yeah. I was definitely a late bloomer, late to come to football. And that's probably because I think, I always joke that I was born 30, 30 years too early. If I was just a little bit younger, I think I would, you know, I would have been, playing football a lot sooner than in my late 40s. So I was very much a very sporty kid in the 1970s, but never, ever allowed to even entertain the idea of playing football, despite the fact that every lunchtime and recess I would be out there with the boys kicking, you know, that, kick to kick and taking speckies on my sister when I made his sort of kneel down in the backyard and things like that, I was just never allowed to play. So eventually I did find my way to footy, and I loved it. I just loved it. I felt like I was living my childhood dream every time I ran out there. It was. Yeah, it was just amazing. And it was, I miss, I still miss it. Like, I miss it every every week. Every every time I see my team run out, every time I see the under sixteens run out, I'm standing on the sidelines, sort of almost twitching to get back out.

Annabelle White [00:15:31] Kamahl, what drew you to footy in the first place?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:15:36] I've always loved footy. I've always been a mad Collingwood supporter and I just always wanted to play. It was just as I said, I was a really sporty kid, just so keen to play. And because I was never allowed it, I sort of just put it on the backburner for so long. And then when the opportunity arose, one of one of my girlfriends had actually joined the club, and she said, come down, come down. So I did, and I just, I just I loved it from the moment I stepped out there, put on the boots and, you know, I felt like a real player. It was rather funny. But, so I always knew I would love playing the game because I had watched the game and loved watching the game, so that didn't surprise me. I knew I would love it, but I guess what did surprise me was how much I loved being part of the team, and I, I played netball, I'd done all that, you know, softball at school, I played indoor cricket when I was an adult. And, you know, I had done team sports before. But there's something about football and putting your body on the line, I think, and the camaraderie that you have with your teammates, because there is something at stake when you go out there like it, it hurts to, you know, to get tackled, to get bumped off a ball, you know, to try and take a mark. It's it's the most challenging but rewarding experience I’ve ever had in sport.

Annabelle White [00:17:02] You mentioned that you just, you loved the sport the second you put your footy boots on that first time. So when you think about your life before AFL compared to now, what has playing the sport really brought to your life?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:17:16] Yeah, just being part of a club. It's it's yeah, really awesome to feel. It's that belonging I think we've, we've, yeah, something all women can relate to. I think we're really good at doing that when we're surrounded by a group of other women who appreciate the same things that we do. You find your tribe, I suppose. And that's the thing that I was surprised how much I really loved that, how much I needed that. The most awesome feeling to know that you're out there working as a team to hopefully have a win. But honestly, we've come off the grounds at the end of some huge thumpings and we've been the ones getting thumped and we are just as up as if we've done, you know, we've had a ten goal win because we just loved being out there, just having a go and trying something that a lot of people all our lives in at Masters level anyway, when we were younger, told us we would never do and we shouldn't do. And so we're sort of going, well, we are doing it and we're loving it, and no one's going to stop us except for an ACL.

Annabelle White [00:18:17] Kamahl 18 months ago, you were playing in an off-season friendly match when you tore your ACL. Can you tell us about that moment when you went down to the ground and you knew that this was a significant injury?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:18:30] Yeah, it didn't hurt. I didn't get that rush of pain initially. I did feel that pop. It was like a gentle release, I suppose. And so therefore, when I hit the ground, I was hopeful that it wasn't an ACL. It was very painful when I hit the ground though as as in not landing on the ground, but by the time I hit the ground, my knee was it was excruciating. And I did that, that classic sort of grasp for your knee. Almost in a foetal position because you're in so much pain. I, I assumed it was my meniscus because of the pain, because I'd heard stories about people basically having that really, you know, that sharp sensation of pain and then getting up and almost wanting to run off the ground. And that didn't happen to me. So I sat on the sidelines and I just sat there in excruciating pain. And by the time I went, by the time I had the diagnosis and went to the surgeon and was presented with the options, which was, well, if you want to play sport, if you want to continue sport, really surgery is the way to go, if you're happy not to play sport and hang up your boots and retire. And it wasn't just footy like it would be, you know, potentially any sport or even sometimes people can't walk properly because their knee gives way. So, you know, if I wanted to do any travelling or anything like that. Surgery seemed to be the best option for me. Following surgery, I remember waking up and it was I've had I've had children, so it was akin to childbirth, the pain. It was next level. And that probably, you know, it did subside a little. But I think it took probably ten days to really, for the pain to sort of be manageable.

Annabelle White [00:20:21] Brooke, Kamahl has spoken a little bit about that moment when she knew that she was injured, but she didn't necessarily know that it was an ACL injury. A little bit of hope there that it was another, maybe a less significant injury. Is this common amongst participants, coaches, volunteers, in particularly, in community sport? Regarding having a lack of understanding of the injury.

Brooke Patterson [00:20:44] Yeah. As I mentioned, often the pain subsides and you feel, you know, relatively normal. So it's not until you go to the physio, the sports doctor, and you have the ACL test and they might be able to feel it. You do often see on the TV, them doing pulling on the shin, it's the ACL test. But often even that is hard to tell. So it's often not until you kind of get referred to the MRI and don't have the MRI, which can can take some time for community athletes that actually get that confirmation. And so that time waiting can be hard. Not knowing what I kind of wanted to pick up on, on what, Kamahl was saying about an injury in that immediate management is that there's no disadvantages of having that delay. And I, I think particularly for community athletes where, potentially, you know, time isn't, time is always a factor for everyone, but there's no disadvantages in terms of, you know, damaging the knee further. You know, as long as you're being sensible and looking after yourself and having a bit of a delay, and in fact, if you do a little bit of what we call pre-rehab or some some physio on some strengthening and some range of movement stuff before surgery, those people actually recover better. So I think there's that thought that, you know, you just have to go and get booked in straight away. That's going to be the best. So that was the first thing I wanted to kind of mythbust I guess. And then the other thing is that surgery is the only option. Certainly, there's some kind of early evidence to suggest that some people can cope without having surgery straight away. And most of these, is in, in Scandinavia and that about one third, in these studies can actually cope without having surgery. And can I just say Kamahl I love listening to your description of why you love sport and why you love footy, and why you've got into coaching. A lot of that, resonates with me, but I think. The, for the listeners hearing that seeing hearing your passion and you're obviously now, you know rehabing to want to get back and I think too many too often particularly women and particularly women who are a little bit older, it might be just like, oh, you know, don't bother. You know, you're not going to get back to sport or, you know, the the bar is often lowered, I think a little bit. So I just, you know, 100% love your passion and motivation. I think it's inspiring for everyone to, to listen to and coaches to be like, right now, we've got to keep these women on the field and we've got to educate them involved as well.

Kamahl Cogdon [00:23:17] Thank you. Yeah, look, I definitely feel I've encountered that too, that I think people I think, the experts that are on some of the experts that I've consulted, I've had some great support, don't get me wrong. But there had been some who I think have thought, why would you bother? You you know, you're now in your 50s. Well, you know, well, what are you going to get out of having surgery and, and why would you want to get back on the footy field.

Annabelle White [00:23:45] Kamahl, you've spoken about the opportunity to remain engaged in your club in coaching positions. Do you think that's helped you feel like you still belong as part of the club, maybe lessened those feelings of isolation?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:24:00] Now, yes. At the time, I found going back to the club really difficult. I didn't have so much of an issue coaching the under 16s because I was never involved as a player with them. I was always the coach, so that was easier. That was a, a continuation of what what had already been in place. But going back to the club, as a like, an injured player who was definitely out for at least one season and sort of, you know, sort of, dancing around the edges of what was happening because I couldn't get that involved even at training. I could give advice and I could, you know roll a ball, a handball, maybe, but I couldn't, I wasn't very hands on. I couldn't be I was, you know, it's just wasn't possible for quite a long time. So yes, it was good, but it was also hard because it was a reminder of what you didn't have.

Annabelle White [00:24:57] Do you have any recommendations for coaches who are maybe working with participants who have suffered a significant injury and how they can make them still feel like they're part of those teams?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:25:09] Yeah, definitely. My, the coach who coaches our Masters team is fantastic. He is always asking me for, you know, what I think about, this, this drill or did I want to add something to, you know, the halftime address or the, the pre-game address? He's very inclusive. He knows that, I’ve, you know, through the ringer with the injury. So I think just keep including, including the player, basically, follow the lead a little bit because it is hard at the start, but I think, you know, just offering your support constantly, even if they're not accepting it at the time, that just keep just keep offering it because they're just probably going through some stuff in their own minds or in their own heads that maybe they're not quite in that spot yet, but knowing that that supports their even if you can't accept it at the time, is really important to know that it's there.

Annabelle White [00:26:08] Brooke, coaches certainly don't want to see their participants suffer these significant injuries. What can coaches do to try and prevent their participants suffering an ACL injury?

Brooke Patterson [00:26:19] Great question. I think there's probably that notion out there that, you know, they are just a part of sport and you can't prevent them that the scientific evidence would tell us otherwise. So there's what we call kind of neuromuscular training programs. So essentially, they're like a dynamic warm up where and then some strengthening exercises. And then some of the programs also have some of the sports-specific skills. So doing those things, can reduce ACL injuries by 40 to 60%. And this is from lots and lots of studies, hundreds of thousands of, you know, participants, across many years of research. And then what they do is kind of summarise in what we call systematic review. So there's some some good evidence out there that these programs do work. And, if I go into a little bit more detail without getting into the nitty gritty, but the warm up would be doing some balancing, doing some jumping and landing on one leg, getting a little bit of a push when you're in the air. So you get used to kind of landing, in awkward positions and being pushed. It's working on your footwork when you kind of sprint and then have to stop, change direction, cut. It's learning how to fall and roll. And then it's working on, on all the muscles in the core, in the lower limb that actually enable you to kind of cope with the demands of the game.

Annabelle White [00:27:36] So Brooke there's a wealth of resources out there for coaches who want to understand this injury better, and how they can prevent injuries within their teams. Do you have any favourite resources out there that coaches can review before their next training session?

Brooke Patterson [00:27:52] Yes. And most sports will have their own injury prevention program. So I'll put a lot of the links in the show notes, but say, Football Australia has the Perform Plus. Rugby Australia had the Activate program. And then in terms of, so that's prevention stuff, in terms of rehab the Melbourne ACL return to sport guide is a really good one. Just have an overview of the rehabilitation steps and the criteria that you need to achieve. The Super Knee program got some really good photos of different types of ACL rehab exercises. Jess Cunningham’s book, POP goes through experiences of elite Australian athletes and it just really humanises them as they talk through the challenges in their rehab. I think it can help community athletes understand that everyone's journey is different and not to compare themselves. And then one of your best resources is your local sport and exercise professional kind of come out and help you implement injury prevention or having a list of good professionals in the area that might specialise in ACL or it might be concussion. So you can refer your athletes to, to, people with that expertise.

Annabelle White [00:29:00] Kamahl what's helped you the most during your recovery?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:29:03] Definitely having my physio and trainer I think without them, I don't know where I'd be. My new physio has been amazing, as has my trainer Tom. He's just been by my side the whole time. They together work on a program for me that, is adjusted any time I sort of meet a milestone or I'm lacking in a particular area that shows up in tests, regular testing. To to have to do that independently by, like, just at home, by myself. I just don't know if I could have done it.

Annabelle White [00:29:39] So thank you Kamahl and Brooke both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information today.

Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the ASCs Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is Annabelle White and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your teammates, fellow coaches and officials, and friends.

This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Transcript

Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is at Annabelle White. I am joining you from Eora country, and I am the coaching advisor for coaching and officiating at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today we will be discussing the role of menstruation and hormonal contraception in community sport. We will be discussing the impacts of menstruation and hormonal contraception on participation in sport, how we as coaches can create a culture of openness and transparency, and how we can leverage the lived experience of those around us to create this culture within our team and participant groups. To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport, the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. We are lucky today to welcome Noella Green and Doctor Briana Larsen to the podcast. Noella is a retired rugby union athlete. During her career as an athlete, she personally experienced the transition of planning pre-conception training while pregnant and returning to sport postpartum. Noella is a practising accredited exercise physiologist and scientist working in the clinical space of female health at all stages of life. She is actively involved in researching female athlete health, and is currently contributing to two projects returning to sport postpartum and sports bra protection in contact sports. Brianna is a senior lecturer of sport and exercise at the University of Southern Queensland. Her research at the moment is focussed on the menstrual cycle, hormonal contraception and educating athletes on these topics. She is actively involved in supporting sports to better support athletes to understand these topics and their impacts. Briana and Noella, I am thrilled to welcome you both today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:01:54] Thanks so much, Annabelle, for having me on the podcast. And I do just want to first, before we get into our chat, acknowledge the traditional owners of the Ipswich region where I'm recording today, the Jagera, Yuggera and Ugarapul people.

Noella Green [00:02:05] Thank you so much for having us. It's really exciting to be here.

Annabelle White [00:02:09] So, Brianna, what should coaches know about menstruation?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:02:13] That's such a big question and I could answer it so many ways, but I, I think if I can split it into two broad areas, one being practical aspects and the other being creating an open and positive culture when it comes to discussing these topics. So when I say practical aspects, that covers things like having solid knowledge of the menstrual cycle and hormonal contraception, and not expecting coaches to be doctors, but just having a good basic knowledge of how these things may affect the athletes. Encouraging menstrual cycle tracking for athletes because, you know, data is power and we can apply that to our training. And also having pathways in place for athletes who might come to with, with issues with their cycle. So those sorts of practical things I think some big takeaways. But also the second part of that, creating a culture where athletes actually do feel comfortable having these discussions, if they're having issues with their cycle that may potentially be impacting their training or even just, you know, their overall health and wellbeing, they should be able to feel comfortable coming to their coaches or other support staff with those issues in the same way that they would, for example, an injury. And at the moment, the data suggests that athletes don't feel comfortable having these conversations with their coaches. So I think creating that, that culture is the second takeaway that I'd like to, to really impart today.

Annabelle White [00:03:38] Yeah, brilliant. And you've kind of spoken to it a little bit there. Women and girls necessarily don't feel comfortable having those conversations. There's a statistic at the moment that seven out of ten young girls avoid being active while on their period. So why is it important for community coaches to understand the effects of menstruation.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:03:59] Using that example that you just provided Annabelle we know that young girls in particular do often avoid physical activity altogether, and that may be in part because the culture within the sport isn't that inviting or open to be able to say, hey, I'm just feeling a bit off today. Can I, you know, train at a seven out of ten instead of a nine out of ten. And maybe if there was that culture within sport, maybe we'd have girls and women continue participating and not feeling like they need to bow out.

Annabelle White [00:04:29] Listening to Brianna, there Noella, when you reflect on your experience in sport, did menstruation impact your participation?

Noella Green [00:04:37] Yeah. So for me it was at quite a young age for, for me, I was very I was always running around crazy as a kid. I had three big brothers. Once I got my period, I was in high school. And, so, I mean, I just had a very abnormal cycle, pretty much every two weeks I get my period. And then it'd be quite heavy for 2 to 3 days. So from a confidence perspective, and it was confidence in relation to, like, if I was doing something in sports, I'd be worried about leaking. I'd be worried that somebody could see the wings on my pad because we had these big basketball shorts. And if you're sitting on the ground, people could see stuff I'd be wearing. And there were times that I actually leaked through. So for me, that was really the that was where the mental block was for me participating in sport. And my dad saw that quite early. My mom is from the highlands of Papua New Guinea so when you talk about menstrual cycle and periods and all that kind of stuff, it's, it's a whole different culture and a whole other conversation. So my support came through my father, and the only way my father knew was to take me to the doctor's and say help my daughter, the response to which was to put her on a hormonal contraceptive. So as I progressed through life and even to the the elite sporting side of things, for me there was less of an impact in sports because I was on hormonal contraceptives.

Annabelle White [00:06:13] You spoke about normal, and I want to dive into normal menstruation because I'm sure any women listening to this, or even men who have had those conversations with their partners or friends, know that the experiences of menstruation are so diverse. So when you were growing up, or even just going through sport, was that a regular conversation that you had with your team-mates, with coaches on what does normal menstruation look like?

Noella Green [00:06:41] Never. No. Oh, not at all. And I think the only thing that was kind of normal, when I was younger, was I'd see friends that would feel very unwell or I've got my period, then would step away from sports at school. If I go to the the dressing rooms in rugby, you know, we would basically shout does anyone have a pad? Anyone got a tampon? Anyone got this? I just got my period. You know, sometimes, the athletes would talk about some of the symptoms that they were feeling at the time or that I was feeling off, but it was never conversation, with the coaches. And I'm in a male dominated sport as well.

Annabelle White [00:07:30] Brianna, I might come to you and ask a similar question. I guess understanding our bodies and understanding how we may differently, experience menstruation to the person standing next to us. It's very humanising and it's very, I guess, calming to know that what you're experiencing in your body may be different from someone else, but is still normal. So what's the benefit of, I guess, athletes or participants in sport and coaches, to an extent, to understand that the experiences of menstruation are going to vary.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:08:03] I think that's really important to get across, and I think we're still not doing a good enough job with educating young people who are going through that experience. I know I think it's gotten better than, you know, when I was growing up and going through that, but I know that I was someone who didn't have what was considered normal menstruation. I got my period very late, ended up much, much later down the track being diagnosed with PCOS or polycystic ovarian syndrome. But it it wasn't something I felt comfortable talking about. You know, I was doing not high level, but I was doing, you know, recreational level training a lot with gymnastics. And certainly it wasn't something I felt comfortable saying, oh, I don't have my period yet to other people. I was aware that it wasn't normal, but I certainly was not comfortable to have those conversations.

Annabelle White [00:08:53] What does the research tell us about, experiences of menstruation, particularly as it's relevant to sport? Are athletes regularly experiencing what's classified as normal menstrual patterns or are they varying? Do people have a good understanding of what normal looks like?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:09:16] I can speak to that one. Athletes have higher rates of menstrual cycle dysfunction than the general population. They also tend to have, although this is a little bit specific on the region and sport that you study, they tend to have higher rates of hormonal contraceptive use, which might not be surprising if you think about having higher rates of menstrual cycle dysfunction and oftentimes one of the sort of treatment options or ways that that might be managed is through hormonal contraception. We also know that athletes use hormonal contraception to manipulate their cycle. So, you know, taking the oral contraceptive pill so you can then choose when to take those sugar pills and time that around aligns with training. Although a lot of the, the, the issues that we see, in athletes, you could certainly extrapolate out into the general public as well. But in terms of the knowledge, we certainly say that that is still very low.

Noella Green [00:10:21] And I guess I guess from my side, you know, what I absolutely love is the wonderful people like Brianna doing this research, because there is a lot of research out there. But I also like to, I guess from being an athlete and then having a clinical exercise background, it's also that research application to practice component that comes into it. So, you know, Brianna mentioned the the lack of knowledge, absolutely huge. And that's just across the board. And I think no matter what it is in life, if you don't know about something, it can be overwhelming. As soon as you start to talk about the menstrual cycle and female athletes are like, oh, okay. So I think that definitely yes, there is a lack of knowledge there on just the bare minimum of what you need to know, you know, what are the hormones? how are they important to you as a female? How can you actually work with them rather than against them to make people sick with illness scale. So that's kind of the normal. And then understanding that you as an individual, to the person who's on the left and right of you is that could be different. They could be similar. But I think when we talk about normal, when I talk about normal, I'm like, what's your normal? You need to know what your normal is. Because once you know what your normal is, then you can start adapting and changing to make sure you're getting the best health outcomes, but also the best sporting performance outcomes.

Annabelle White [00:11:51] Yeah. And it's interesting because we have to recognise the, the critical role of clinical practitioners in this conversation. We're not expecting our community coaches to be the fountains of knowledge. We understand that they're pulled in a million different directions and they're doing incredible work. But what kind of support, from your coaches, would have made managing your menstruation more tolerable?

Noella Green [00:12:15] I think I look at it as. You're working with female athletes. You learn about strength and conditioning skills, drills, whatever it may be. The reality of working with female athletes is we have different nuances than the male counterpart. Too often I see programs cookie cut to be like, okay, this works. And it might not necessarily. You know, it's a little bit different in in netball. If there's a female dominated sport. But because, you know, my bias is with rugby union. So you know, that's where it comes from for me. But I kind of say programs are picked up. This is what the men do. The women can do this as well. You do all the same strength and conditioning sort of things. And we'll get the same outcome, you know. So for me, I think it's. If coaches lent in to going, okay, I'm working with female athletes. They have boobs, they have vaginas, they have a period that will turn up at some point, whatever that normal is. So having some awareness of that, becoming familiar potentially with the terminology that the group is using and then understanding how they can support that athlete.

Annabelle White [00:13:33] We're going to move on to discussing hormonal contraception. So, Brianna, what should community coaches know about hormonal contraception?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:13:41] I think this topic can be really overwhelming because there's a lot in it. You know, there's a lot of medications, there's a lot of physiology. So I understand that it is really overwhelming. And of course, we don't expect coaches to be doctors and understand, you know, the ins and outs of every one of these medications. But I think having a basic understanding of the different types and that like the menstrual cycle itself, they will affect people differently. So from person to person, some people go on a hormonal contraception and it it might, you know, really help them. And obviously maybe it depends obviously what their reason is for taking it. Obviously if the reason is pregnancy prevention then, you know, that's very helpful. People take it for other reasons as well. But I think having an understanding that there are there is oral contraceptive pills. Everyone knows that, that there are 30 plus types available in Australia with different hormonal makeups. And there are, you know, potential different adverse side effects. But in general, the adverse side effects associated with hormonal contraception are often quite similar to the adverse side effects that people might experience as a part of their cycle, particularly if they have menstrual cycle dysfunction. So having a broad understanding of things like, you know, breast tenderness, mood changes, weight changes, you know, heavy, heavy bleeding, these sorts of things can really impact, obviously, how someone feels and also potentially their ability to train. And if we take the heavy bleeding example and someone ends up anaemic, you know, that that's obviously something that can impact training. So I do think it's worth having a basic understanding that these medications can cause side effects, and that some people will have to go through quite a process to find one that works for them if they do, in fact, you know, need to be want need to be on one.

Annabelle White [00:15:32] Noella speaking to your experience, you started on hormonal contraception, basically to control your experiences of your menstrual cycle and symptoms associated with it. And it almost. Yeah, it created some regularity with your menstrual cycle. So can you speak to a little bit more about your experiences in sport and how the hormonal contraceptive pill impacted your experiences in sport?

Noella Green [00:16:01] For me, it was. It just it made it easier. Like. It made it easier. I knew if I, since it if I was training on the weekend, if I had to perform on the weekend for a competition, I had every confidence that I was not going to be impacted by my menstrual cycle. So for me, as I said, that was really the only thing for me as an athlete, because I actually had confidence on a weekend that I was able to perform with minimal distraction about having my period or worrying about, you know, blood seeping through my shorts. And the other great thing about the sports is we also had, we had dark shorts, which was fabulous.

Annabelle White [00:16:45] Brianna, I'll come to you. Noella kind of explained there how taking hormonal contraceptive gave her confidence in sport. It gave her a sense of security that she wasn't going to bleed through her shorts, that she could manage her symptoms appropriately so that she could show up in the way that she knew she was capable of. And I'm sure those experiences will resonate with a lot of young women and young girls as well. She also mentioned that she started hormonal contraceptive at quite a young age, adolescence, being prescribed hormonal contraception, often at this age.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:17:20] Yeah, it's very, very common in, in young people. And it's a medication that young people can go in and get, you know, without their parents as well.

Annabelle White [00:17:28] So when we think when we think about incredible community coaches in our community sport environments, mom or dad may have picked up the local cricket team just because they were the the last one to step back, the last one to not necessarily say that they can't coach, they're doing their best. They want their girls to have a great time in the sport that they're coaching. Why is it important for these community coaches to understand some of the symptoms associated with hormonal contraception? Some of the reasons why participants may be on hormonal contraception and maybe the impacts that this medication may have on their experiences in sport.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:18:11] I think, you know, like we said earlier, we don't expect coaches, community coaches to be doctors and to know every single thing about this stuff.

But the data does show us that these medications can have an impact on how people feel and their well-being. The, you know, ability to, to exercise, especially if they're potentially trying a new medication and experiencing some side effects, maybe the one they're taking hasn't been the best fit for them. So I think anything that has the potential to affect your athletes or your participants like that is worth coaches knowing. But I think I really do think the biggest part, especially at that community level sport, I think the biggest part is creating the culture. And, you know, maybe it's if you've got a window of time where you can find one of these, you know, half an hour, a little online modules work on that. These are on the Female Performance and Health Initiative website. Have a look at an infographic. Just so these terms aren't a complete novelty, sort of a bit across the terminology. Although of course, you know, the scientific terminology and the terminology people use are often quite different as well. But I think having a basic understanding and then above and beyond that, it's just about saying to the athletes, making it known to them, if you're working with athletes of that age or participants of that age, hey, if you're having a bad day, if you're having any sort of menstruation related symptoms, or if you're trying any sort of new medications, feel free to let me know. We can tailor your training. Just come and have a chat. And then being open to those conversations when they happen.

Annabelle White [00:19:41] Noella, do you think an open culture and more transparency around these conversations would have improved your experience if there was less taboo around those kind of conversations?

Noella Green [00:19:55] Yes, I think it would actually help to support and change the environment for for athletes. And I when I look, you know, when I refer to athletes, if I look at my clinical space, you know, if you're somebody who just likes to walk every single day, like you're an athlete in your own space. You're working with female athletes, we have a different hormonal profile to to males. No ifs or buts about that, right. So I think being open to that and being okay to lean into an uncomfortable conversation, that will be what will start to change this space for females to feel comfortable, to feel confident, to have these conversations. You know, I think sometimes people can get caught up in how complex it is or how big it is. But I think through our conversations and through our actions, that can be really powerful in creating an environment where. Your group. Your supporting group can be unstoppable in what they're doing. I think for me, it's find the language that resonates with the group but also be adaptable to it, bringing the tempo down for that particular person, not necessarily for the entire group.

Annabelle White [00:21:16] Thank you. Brianna, in your research, you found there's a real lack of understanding amongst women and girls who use hormonal contraception. And also, their understanding of their own menstruation. What are the impacts of this?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:21:33] I think it's about we want to do everything we can to get people out exercising at a baseline level. And I'm, you know, same as I slip into athlete language. But I'm talking about anyone who's out exercising. And we want to give people the best opportunity to do that. And I think while people don't have a really good understanding of their bodies or the medication they're taking and how that might impact them, it can mean people opt out or even, you know, maybe retire from their sport early all of those sorts of things. So I think being able to work with our own body through, you know, menstrual cycle tracking in a practical sense, that could be like I've referred to earlier, it could be about speaking to someone early because you notice changes early. So I guess if you're thinking, you know, worst case scenario, a lack of understanding means you think that losing your period is a normal thing that happens when you train hard. Maybe you even think it's a positive thing. There's a lot of misconceptions out there, and that goes on for years and years and years. And you never get a diagnosis, you know, or you never get appropriate education around what might that be potentially causing that? And, you know, things like if we're talking about things like relative energy deficiency in sport that have really, you know, quite devastating health consequences sometimes. So it's really important to be aware of this stuff. And that sort of worst case scenario is about we want to catch people who are experiencing issues and help them, early, but also it's about being able to harness your own power. I always feel really good this this week of my cycle. I'm going to absolutely smash it at training. I'm going to whatever that is. Or, you know, I know that this is a week where I tend to to get a little bit, you know, a little bit sluggish or, I tend to get a bit of a bad back and some cramps on those couple of days. So I'm going to take some Panadol to training and make sure I've got, you know, a couple extra water bottles. And just having that, you know, that knowledge of your own body can make the whole process much more enjoyable. And I think, you know, without having specific numbers and data, I think you can keep people participating in sport where they might not otherwise. So I think that's why it's important.

Annabelle White [00:23:39] Thank you. Look, and you've spoken to it a little bit there. Sport can be a really positive place where we learn more about our bodies, we learn more about what we're capable of as women. How can coaches empower the participants that they're working with to better understand their body?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:23:58] I think by having this be part of the conversation is the first step and sort of following on from, you know, when know time before about using a bit of humor. And I think that's really important, particularly when you're communicating this stuff to to younger people. But I also think consistency is key. And just this making it part of the conversation. I've seen a lot of very well-meaning, you know, organisations or coaches get people like me in to do a workshop, but I don't know how impactful that is unless the conversations flow on from that. And I say in these workshops how awkward it is at the start and how, you know, you've got to work, you've got to work on it a little bit. There's a lot of taboo even in society with these topics as well. So I think having that consistency in the conversation and then through that, people get curious about their own bodies, you know, about what they're capable of, about when they feel best, and perhaps when they don't feel their best. And what support do I need? So I think that's the power. I think sport can be a real conduit. And, you know, if we can educate people through sport and then they go see a doctor and get, you know, get diagnosed with a health issue that that might have taken them longer. Well that’s great, that’s sport acting as a conduit to better health. So I think there's a real opportunity here for that as well.

Annabelle White [00:25:18] Thank you. Noella listening to Brianna, what is the importance to you as an athlete in understanding your body?

Noella Green [00:25:27] Its your body. Your body is your temple. Your body is what's going to get you the outcomes that you want. In relation to moving and moving right. So if you're not aware of what your body needs to move well or move at its optimal level, you're basically doing yourself a disservice. So to me, your body is your temple. Know what you need to do to fuel and perform well and do what you can to support that.

Annabelle White [00:26:01] And you've already spoken about some of the things that coaches can do to better empower the women and girls that they work with and create a culture of openness. But do you have anything to add on how coaches can create those positive environments?

Noella Green [00:26:15] Yeah. Look, I know we've probably mentioned this a couple of times already. And, Brianna, actually the word that really stood out with me is, is consistency when you're working with female athletes. You do have to do things a little bit different.

Annabelle White [00:26:31] Brianna, some coaches won't be able to relate with their athletes. With regards to their experiences of hormonal contraception or menstruation or whatever it is, whether they're male or personally, haven't had any issues with their cycle or for a range of other reasons. How can coaches leverage the experiences of people around them to create an open culture with their participants?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:26:54] Yeah, I mean, that is a really good point, and it's something that I've seen a lot of coaches say when they've been maybe nervous to have these conversations with the athletes or participants, as I just don't know about that. I, understand you know, that sort of push back. But I think. I think most coaches would agree that there's probably a lot of whether it's health issues, personal issues, things that the athletes that will experience, that they might not personally. And this is just another one of those. And you can still be empathetic and open and supportive of that, even if you haven't personally gone through that yourself. So I think it's important for coaches to feel, to realise I don't need to have gone through it. I don't need to have, you know, doctor level knowledge just to be able to be supportive. But I do think there is still power in leveraging people that can speak to these issues more intimately, those with lived experience. And in my experience, coming in and doing a lot of these educational workshops with different sports teams, the ones that have worked the best in terms of creating open conversations, you know, and getting athletes to feel comfortable asking questions, have had a lot of involvement from the more senior athletes and really having them lead some conversations potentially, if they're comfortable, obviously share some of their own experiences, and that just really sets the scene in the room or, you know, whatever the case may be, to just that, this is an okay thing to talk about. It kind of takes the pressure out of it. So I think that's another way of coaches are maybe feeling a little bit tentative on their own. They can maybe have some conversations with some of the older athletes, or the more senior athletes who who have maybe been comfortable and showed that comfort in speaking about these topics before and, and sort of use them as a way to make some of the other people feel more comfy.

Annabelle White [00:28:41] Why is lived experience so important when discussing these topics?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:28:47] I think it's important because when you hear someone else describing an experience that maybe you thought was something that only you had gone through or you you know, I think people do have a lot of often shame about these things or concern that something isn't normal for them. And so I think it's very, very powerful to have someone speak to their own personal experience, but to be able to relate and resonate with that. And I think it makes people feel a lot, a lot less alone in what they're going through. So I think having those conversations and we do say in terms of I'm a scientist, I always go back to the research, sorry if that's boring, but we certainly say, you know, some studies show that there's not a lot of conversations between team-mates around the menstrual cycle. And it might be, like you said, not maybe it's around the level of athlete where they don't know or the sport might be specific to, but it does seem to be a bit of a mixed bag in terms of whether athletes or, you know, even recreational level sport participants feel comfortable having these conversations in a sport environment, the reasons why they report not talking to their coaches. And then that's a good place for coaches to sort of break down those barriers. And those often times are they don't know anything about it. They're not going to be able to help anyway. Or it's too awkward. So the three things that I think, okay, if, if, if you put yourself in, you know, we're talking to coaches here. If you're a coach, how can you break down those barriers and create that environment for that conversation even if you can't personally relate? So I think the awkwardness thing that comes down to consistency, just making this a part of the conversation, all the things that we've sort of talked about already that, oh, they're not going to be able to help anyway. Okay. Have some pathways, have some people that, you know, some referral pathways so that the athlete knows if they bring it to you. It's not just, okay. It's what can we do about this, you know, and, and there's, there's a pathway of support. And I think that is an issue that that's something that's not done well pretty much across the board. And I think, you know, it's probably another big thing we need to tackle as well as the education piece.

Annabelle White [00:30:52] Thank you Noella and Brianna both for sharing your personal stories, but also your valuable insights and knowledge today. Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the ASC Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is Annabelle White and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your Team-mates, fellow coaches and officials and friends. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Transcript

Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White. I am joining you from Eora Country, and I am the Coaching Advisor for Coaching and Officiating at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topic.

Today we will be discussing how we as coaches can support positive relationships with body image amongst participants in community sport. Much of these learnings will be relevant to coaches regardless of the gender of your participants. We will be discussing positive body image strategies for giving technical feedback, language and what a coach's role is in creating positive body image environments. Today's topic can be sensitive for many people. If now is not a good time for you to hear this, please feel free to come back at another time that is more suitable to you. If you need support, the Butterfly National helpline is available and we will link the details in the show notes.

We are lucky today to welcome Nikki Jeacocke and Danni Rowlands to the podcast. Nikki is a Senior Sports Dietician at the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport), [an] accredited practising Dietician and credentialed Eating Disorder Clinician. She has worked with a range of athletes, from pathways to senior elite across many Olympic and professional sports, and is the AIS National Disordered Eating Initiative Lead. Nikki is a mum to three wonderful kids and is in her kid sport era.

Danni is Head of Prevention at the Butterfly Foundation, a not-for-profit organisation that represents all people affected by eating disorders and negative body image issues. She is motivated by identifying gaps and developing innovative universal prevention programs and initiatives in a range of environments. In her personal life, Danni also coaches netball at her local club in Melbourne,

To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Danni and Nikki, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast who both have such a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Thank you for coming along.

Danni Rowlands [00:02:06] Thanks so much for having us, I'm joining from Wurundjeri country.

Nikki Jeacocke [00:02:10] Yeah, thanks so much, Annabelle, I'm coming from Ngunnawal country.

Annabelle White [00:02:15] Thank you. Danni, what is body image?

Danni Rowlands [00:02:18] That’s a good question. I'm going to keep it simple as possible for obviously, your audience. But but body image is the thoughts, feelings and attitudes that a person holds about their body or their appearance or more broadly, their physical self. And obviously the thoughts, feelings and attitudes then really affect the behaviours that a person, will engage in in relation to eating, physical activity and also obviously how they feel about themselves as a whole.

Annabelle White [00:02:46] Why is it important that we have a positive relationship with body image?

Danni Rowlands [00:02:51] Well, every person lives in a body, and therefore every person has a relationship with that body. And it's really at the core and foundation of an individual. It's obviously not the whole individual, but it certainly plays a significant role. So the reason we want to support positive body image, in all people, but particularly in children and young people, is because that sets the foundation for how they engage in their life, how they participate in their sports, how they interact in their relationships and friendships. So we know that having a positive relationship with their body actually really sets them up to have really positive and, thriving experiences in school, study and also sport.

Annabelle White [00:03:31] Absolutely. So Nikki, listening to Danni, then, when you think about your work in your professional role, what has been the impact you have seen when positive body image has been prioritised?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:03:44] I think what I've seen is, is that body image, is, forms a small piece of a bigger puzzle. So when body image is prioritised, I see environments where, all athletes and participants of all body sizes and shapes, but but broader than that around diversity and inclusion for all people, well, being welcoming to sport. So when positive body image is prioritised I see this is a big piece, a piece of the puzzle around, creating supportive environments where everyone is welcoming and everyone's encouraged to thrive.

Annabelle White [00:04:21] Thank you. And further to that, what has been the impact when positive body image maybe hasn't been prioritised or even compromised?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:04:31] Yeah, I think the flick has been the same, which is we then say it potentially is a place where the environment isn't inclusive for all. So, I see impacts on health and performance both ways, both in the positive and the negative. So when positive body image is prioritised, we're providing environments and creating opportunities for our participants to, have fun, enjoy their sport and participate to their best capacity, without it being impacting health, and health, and also performance.

Annabelle White [00:05:03] Nikki, you're a parent to three children. They participate in AFL, cricket and also dance. How do you, role model positive body image?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:05:12] Parents have such an important role in modelling positive body image for their kids. So, I take this role quite seriously, both because it's my profession, but also, you know, aware the impact that that I can have on my kids. So there's three key ways that I do it. The first one is around language. So how I speak about my body, how I speak about my kids bodies, but also how I speak about other children on other people's body. So I'm very aware of the language I use on all three of those facets. I try really hard to create an environment. And this is both my husband and I that work really hard to try and create an environment at home for our kids where we have conversations. We are aware that that we can control. And I do that with, you know, a quote unquote, but but we have impact of what the kids hear and see in our house, but not necessarily what goes on outside it. So we are very conscious about creating an environment where the kids feel comfortable to come home and talk about things they might have heard, things they might have written, a book, you know, heard from kids at school or been learning at at school. Even the movies I watch, you know, there are messages about bodies that are out there, and we can do our best to minimise the negative messages that kids are getting. But let's be honest, diet culture is everywhere in our society, so it is hard to shield them from everything. And I'm aware that it's not my job to shield them from everything, but create an environment where we're really comfortable to talk about things. And so, you know, often it's at the dinner table or driving the car where the kids will bring up things that they've heard or read or seen, and we'll have a conversation around, you know, whatever it is that they might have heard. And if it's problematic, why that might be the case. And what could what could have been said differently or, you know, it depends on the example. So that's the second way. And the other way is that I do try and help the kids build skills. So I'm trying to create three resilient kids that as I said, I can't control everything that they hear and say and read. So when they are exposed to messaging that maybe is problematic and not as ideal, how do they filter that? How do they identify first and foremost, probably that it's problematic, and then how are they working themselves? They can of course, come to to me, my husband and use us as, as, resources, but also trying to teach them that resilience themselves of dealing with that messaging and, yeah, how they can be, be resilient in the world that we live in.

Danni Rowlands [00:07:50] I guess further further to that because they're all fantastic, actually examples and things. I think when you're working in this space, you are aware of the things that can be helpful. Doesn't mean we’re gunna nail it every time. I think that's a really important part. So even though I've been working in this space for the majority of my career, for my life as well. But, I think things that I really try to do is that ensure that my kids know that their appearance, their body, is the least important thing about them, that that's not the thing that I value the most. And it's also the same thing with myself that that my appearance in my body is the least important and the least interesting thing about me and what I do in the world. I also really try to model positive relationship with, with movement and also eating. So, there's not diets happening in our household. I don't talk about we're eating this because we need to be healthy. I'm going for, you know, I'm going for a walk because we've got a party coming up, or whatever it might be. But also that, I guess to Nikki's point, we can't control what happens outside in the world. And we've had experiences in our house where my kids have had people make comments about their body or their appearance. And I guess how we we, I manage that, is one I try not to be reactive with them, and that their body is not the problem, it's the comments or it’s the society's way of looking at bodies that that is, but also letting our kids sit with some of that discomfort. So I've got a pre-teen and I've got a child that's just starting to move through puberty. So trying to be as supportive in that, that process as possible and open about it, but also embracing that change with with my kids too.

Annabelle White [00:09:33] Thank you both for sharing. Do you think, Danni, that there's any of these strategies that coaches can maybe employ?

Danni Rowlands [00:09:41] All of these strategies, the coaches that we can, that coaches can employ at every level. But I guess from that, community level, I think we want to make sure that we're not just saying the people that we're coaching as potential athletes or Olympians or, you know, playing for national teams or whatever it might be, that we're actually seeing them as whole people and coaches play such an important role in being a role model, particularly in early early teen years, where children start to look outside their home for positive role models in their lives. So actually having similar messages where their body is the least important thing about them that they're looking at, at, at them as a whole individual. Role modelling through language as Nicki really beautifully articulated. And as well as just what they're celebrating in, the the, the young people that they're working with is really critical as well.

Annabelle White [00:10:35] Nikki a positive relationship with food and body image go hand in hand. What role if, anything do coaches have in supporting participants in understanding what and when they should eat and drink?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:10:47] Yeah, you're absolutely right, Annabelle. That food and body image do go hand in hand, but we want to be careful that we don't overstate coaches role and the role they have to play in supporting their participants around nutrition. So, if, unless the coach is a trained nutrition professional I think the easy answer here is they don't need to be making any comments on on what their participants are eating. In saying that as a trained dietician, if I was coaching a group, I would still not be commenting on what they're eating, because what I'm seeing of my participants is a small snapshot in their overall day, etc. etc. So even trained professionals probably wouldn't be commenting. So I think the easy answer is, you know, really minimal role here. The role that coaches do have to play though is in providing opportunities. And I'm going to give an example around fluid here. So coaches will, it's a very common part of coaching that they will, coaches provide a drinks break for their participants. And so an example I might give you if it's a 40 degree day and you know you're training outside and a coach is used to normally giving one drinks break in an hour session, they might switch that up and give 2 or 3 drinks break. So drink opportunities because it is a hotter day. So the coach's role is in providing opportunities definitely, but what the participant drinks and how much is on the participant and their parents.

Annabelle White [00:12:21] What should a coach do if participant comes to them with questions around diet and nutrition?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:12:27] I think the coaches get to have a pass and I get to say, look, this isn't my area of expertise. And what I would be recommending coaches do is refer to, refer the parent or if it's a participant asking, you know, but talking to the parent as well around how could you access some trained nutrition advice. So whether it's going through Dieticians Australia to access a dietitian or sports Dietitians Australia, or if you wanting some specific sports nutrition advice heading to to either of those websites, you know there are a fine sports dietician on on the the websites and you can then find someone in your local area.

Annabelle White [00:13:04] Nikki, what's the relationship between body image and an eating disorder?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:13:09] Well as Danni mentioned, body image [is] being the thoughts and feelings that someone has around their body, and it's then the behaviours that someone engage in as a result of those thoughts and feelings. So when someone has, body image dissatisfaction or persistent negative thoughts and feelings about their body, this can lead them to then engage in unhelpful behaviours, particularly disordered eating, which then places them at a heightened risk for developing an eating disorder.

Annabelle White [00:13:37] So why is it important for coaches and community sport to be aware of the relationship between the two?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:13:42] I think there's a twofold reason and the role of community coaches here. So prevention and the environment that that the coaches are creating play an important role, and early identification as well. So if they are noticing some signs or symptoms or some concerning behaviour in one of their participants, coaches knowing who to go to because it is most certainly not their job to diagnose. So how can they have a conversation with the parent potentially to express what they've seen? But feeling really comfortable that they are able to refer on.

Annabelle White [00:14:20] Danni, I'll come to you. Nicki spoke then about some concerning behaviours that might be, that they may identify in their work as a coach in one of their participants. How can coaches identify some behaviours that may be deemed as concerning?

Danni Rowlands [00:14:37] The best thing coaches can do is really be across what the warning signs are and understand what what it looks like, just generally because eating disorders don't discriminate, disordered eating doesn't discriminate, like doesn't discriminate as well. So it's important to perhaps identify that maybe athletes that are at a higher risk, just pure, purely because of the nature that involves nutrition and eating and training in a different way. But what we do know is that by understanding what those warning signs are and knowing what they're kind of looking out for, then that can really help. So, I know that the AIS has some wonderful resources that coaches can access and that information on the Butterfly Foundation website also to give that that information. So if we are noticing that perhaps an athlete or a participant, young person is doing more and training more, that we're not looking at that and just over celebrating that, that we're actually got the lens of, oh, I hope this this young person is okay. Has there been any criticism about their body shape or their size? Are they going through puberty and how are they managing that? Do they seem to be comfortable in their body during this experience, or do they seem to be be not? So if we start to see maybe some early signs of body dissatisfaction, that's when we really need to jump on on it as a coach, that's not to try to fix it ourselves, but that's more to just be alert and also just to to speak openly, potentially with that, that young person's parent, and help them to become aware.

Nikki Jeacocke [00:16:09] If I could add there that change in an individual is an important one. And coaches often know their participants well, and they get it's a really lovely relationship that, that they build. And so if things change for the young person, as Danni said, it can be the coach that's often the first to see that. And whether that's that they're asking for more training sessions or, you know, they're more conscious in the uniforms. You know, there's a number of examples we can give there. But but identifying change in an individual, which then comes back to treating each individual as an individual, a narrative that I do hear a lot in my role is things around, you know, well, you know, enough weight loss, enough weight hasn't been lost or there hasn't been any weight loss. So it's not an issue. And I would really like to push back against that narrative around weight as a early warning sign. There are times where there are eating disorders, where weight is absolutely never a sign, and there are times where weight loss is a very late sign. And by the time we we pick up on it and waiting for, you know, quote unquote, to drop far enough that we're then concerned we could be talking about an eating disorder that is very well embedded.

Annabelle White [00:17:26] Nikki, how would you describe a community sport environment that is body image safe?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:17:32] I think this is a really important one. So the environment that is created for our young people is so important and the link to body image. So community sport where I've seen that being done well, it's where all body shapes sizes are welcome and that they have a role to play so that we're not prioritising specific body shapes, sizes, whether that's height, as well, to specific positions. And it's also around the language that is used. So I think it's creating a safe environment. And then within that the language that it's used. So for community coaches it's being very specific about you know, bodies are being used to do the sport. They are the vehicle for the sport. But being very conscious of the coach that when you are trying to give technical advice and technical feedback to someone in your sport, that you are giving very specific technical feedback and not appearance-based feedback. So an example I have here is around, you look good. It is a comment that I hear a lot in community sport and in high performance sport too, to be honest. So, you know, what do we mean by you looked good. And I know when I hear coaches say it that they they are meaning technical, but I would like to have as a guess that for anyone who is told they look good no matter where they are and what they are doing, that that person is probably thinking, that's an appearance-based comment. And I had this conversation with a water polo coach and I said, you know, I really don't, you know one of my bugbears is “you look good”. And I said, “Oh, I'm really shocked by that Nikki, I use that all the time when I'm, you know, coaching my water polo athletes”. And I said to them, “What are you trying to say when you say you looked good in the water today? Because that's the example that I was giving. I said, what are you trying to say?” And they're like, “Well, you know, if I'm talking to the goalkeeper, what I was trying to say was they had great height in the water, they were sitting really high up and, you know, so they had a really good, spread of their arms and they were covering a lot of the goal. And so, you know, their body position in the water was really great”. And I'm like, “Excellent. So rather than you're looking good where I'm pretty sure the person is thinking, I look good in my togs today. You're trying to actually give very technical feedback so that there's no ambiguity and there's no confusion about what you're trying to say.”

Annabelle White [00:20:04] Danni, do you have anything to add there?

Danni Rowlands [00:20:06] I think if we're thinking about, environments, and how we can make them body image safe, particularly at that community level as well. Obviously the language is a critical one, but it's broader than that, too. It's obviously thinking around uniforms and thinking about what's, you know, what's available to young people that will make them feel comfortable. We know that young people, particularly girls, will drop out of sport at a higher rate than at any other time than when they're in that early adolescent age group, around that, 12, 13, 14 years old. So what are the, what are the uniforms that we're making available? Can we have flexibility around that so that we make sure that young people do feel comfortable in their body while it's changing and, and whatnot?

Annabelle White [00:20:51] So, Nikki, in your experience, have you noticed times when coaches or even others in sport haven't been conscious of their language and how it might impact someone's relationship with body image?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:21:03] Yeah, I have I think there's three examples I'd like to give here around how language, can impact someone's body image. I think there's the obvious overt commenting around someone's body that is offensive, negative, harmful, and I think most people don't need me to give an example of that. They'll be aware of what that looks like. I think we see that less and less. And that's one. I think there are two times, and in your question was around when they haven't been conscious. I think that's a really conscious and obvious choice to make those comments, those comments. I think there are times where there are two ways that coaches can, can unconsciously, that their language can be harmful and that can be casual comments. And an example I give here is like, if a coach, you know, you've got a group of kids and you just about to go off for Easter school holidays, you know, a coach, the casual comment around, “Oh, well make sure you don’t too many Easter eggs, you know, over the break. You know, we've had a great pre-season. We don't want to undo all the hard work that we've done”. So that's not an overt and overly offensive, but it's that casual comment which is really encouraging dieting, diet culture, that body's changing. You know, there's a real negative undertone there. And then the flip could be said that, you know, when the, when the team come back from school holidays of, “So clearly you enjoyed your Easter eggs, you know, everyone, everyone clearly had a few too many”. You know, so I think that that can be, you know, and sometimes we do that as banter and chit chat, but we need to be really careful of those casual comments. And the other example that I would give is when we actually think we're giving something, someone a compliment, but we're accidentally potentially causing harm. And so the example that I gave before around you look, you looked good in training today. That is coming, I would suspect, from a really great place when anyone says that, but it still has the potential to cause harm.

Annabelle White [00:23:02] Yeah, absolutely. And I've certainly seen it in my experience, particularly where you haven't seen a child for an extended period of time and maybe they've grown just in height. And that throwaway comment of, oh, you've you've grown so much, even we see that in just, you know, our general day to day lives and it's so easy to make those throwaway comments and not realise the impact it might be having. Danni, coaches will need to comment on a participant's body sometimes to give technical feedback, and we've spoken a lot about that today. How can coaches manage this whilst still creating a environment that's body image safe?

Danni Rowlands [00:23:40] So it is going to depend on obviously the sport and what kind, because some sports have very technical requirements that they need that will require coaches to make lots of comments around body positioning or whatever that might be for their sport. We want, obviously avoid where we can, is using the body size as the motivator. So for example, that if we say, because then what we're doing is we're inadvertently attaching their weight and how they look to their worth or their performance as an athlete. So we want to try to keep them a little bit separate. So for example, if we've heard in a sport oh you landed really heavy then. That could be perceived as. Oh, gosh, I'm I'm heavy, I’ve landed heavy noting that for some some participants that feedback will be just taking it with a grain of salt and won't really be thought too much about it. So we do need to be mindful of the fact as well, that how our comments land will be different on everybody, but we can't control that. So we don't know how anyone feeling in a certain certain point.

Annabelle White [00:24:43] Danni, practically, what are some things that coaches can do to embed positive body image practices into their coaching?

Danni Rowlands [00:24:50] So I think the first thing is, is coaches need to check in with themselves and actually do a bit of a reccy [reconnaissance] and understand what language they're using, what are the words they’re using. And as I mentioned, coaches are people too. So their relationship with their own body is going to be a massive factor in how they also talk and speak and view bodies and, and, you know, young people in their, in their own sport. How they were coached, the language that was used with them is also going to influence. So I think that's the thing we need to really remember is that they are influenced by so many things as a coach. It's also about thinking about the environment that you have with your participants and really trying to think about what are some starts, some changes that you can make. So we don't want to try to think, we've got to fix everything and change everything and everything's broken right now. It is about what can we what what can we do in bite-sized pieces? Again, not to use a food, food analogy in this topic, but what are some things and simple things that we, we can do? Or if there is something like you always say “You look good” or every time you see your, your team or athlete, you know, participants when they return from holidays or whatever, you, you make a comment about, about how they look, can it be something else? Can you actually just really have a mindful, conscious thought around, what is it that I'm going to actually focus on in that. Of course, seeking to learn and learn more about these topics is really important as well. So there are some some great resources. And, and I will share some of those are attached to this as well. But there are some resources that can help you with language and help you consider the role modelling aspects that you do. If you feel it's a culture thing within your sport, actually kind of be a bit of an advocate for that as well. So I think we can be that practical and do that practical stuff one on one as a coach and think about ourselves as an individual, but also how can we influence the broader sport and if, when or even it might just even be at our club? What are some things that we could implement to actually really support positive body image in our sporting environment? Coaching is a really, really, honourable role and a job to do. And again, people don't need to be perfect. And, you know, coaches come up against criticism. And it's really important that our aim with this, this topic and what we're sharing today is not to to make coaches feel like they're getting it all wrong or that there's real criticism and they're all doing it in a really bad way. But rather that this is an opportunity for coaches to, to grow and to learn and to, as we say, unlearn. And that's what self-awareness allows you to do, is to, to check in with yourself and what is driving and what is motivating and what has influenced your coaching style. And just be open to other ways. That's going to be the benefit of the participants, but it's also going to be at the benefit of yourself. Because when we keep learning about body image, the the thing that allows us to grow is that that we find new skills and strategies and, you know, moments of awakening, that helps our own body image to.

Annabelle White [00:28:04] Danni and your role as a coach, how do you work to improve your own self-awareness?

Danni Rowlands [00:28:10] Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, I've worked in that eating disorder and body image space for over 20 years. I've been a high level, athlete in sport, be it netball, and I've also had a lived experience of an eating disorder which did kind of, sport definitely contributed, wasn't the only factor, but definitely contributed. So me, constantly checking in is just part of my nature. And while I have fully recovered, I think we keep growing and evolving as as human beings. So I don't ever think there's an end date without it. With each age and stage that comes in life, I'm I'm having to, you know, look at things through, through different lenses. So I guess, you know, I do think that that self-awareness is it's a priority to me, as is continually growing, learning and unlearning, I think about things even in this space that I've worked in for 20 years, things that I initially thought was the right message that we've now morphed and changed has evolved. So it's not about perfection. The world we live in is continually growing and changing. And so it's it's about being open to the ride of that, so that you can, can keep, keep learning more. And this topic is constantly changing. It is constantly evolving for. It is about kind of tuning in, knowing who I am, what's important to me. And, you know, when I coach the team, I've had them since under nines. I've watched them trying to grow some of them. Some of them involved in pathway stuff. But for me, it's just their enjoyment and just making sure that their experience is, is a really positive one.

Annabelle White [00:29:41] Nikki, how can coaches really empower their participants to see their bodies as just really capable?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:29:49] I mean, a lot does come down to the language that we use. So we're using positive language. But giving them examples, you know, the whole and what I love about sport for children is that it, you know, they're not great and I love watching. You know, Danni gave the example of the coaching her netballers from under nine, you know, until I think they're, you know, around 13 at the moment. You know, watching my kids who've gone from playing a sport where they could barely catch a ball, barely hit a ball, and watching that skill progression and the joy that that brings an individual of, of, and mastering a skill. I don't want to say that because, you know, our young people aren't there yet, they're not masters of their sport. And that is absolutely okay. So, you know, the strength for me around community sport is so many, so many, so many things. But around that camaraderie, you know, teamwork and, you know, doing hard things and failing and that it's okay to fail, but doing hard things and also learning and getting better and seeing that growth. So for me, it really is that strength-based focus, you know, how can we focus on all the things that their bodies can do and their bodies of all different shapes and sizes can do the same activity? You don't have to be a cookie cutter, exactly the same individual to be successful at a sport. So, you know, community sport. And within that, coaches, I think by creating a safe and supportive environment you are empowering your participants and just allowing them to be themselves, be individuals, they then, hopefully they will flourish.

Annabelle White [00:31:22] Danni, there are so many resources out there to support coaches in navigating body image. Do you have any favourites that you'd like to recommend coaches take a look at?

Danni Rowlands [00:31:31] There are lots of resources around body image, so there's books and things like that. And I think that's a really critical place for coaches, particularly community based coaches. To start is actually just to look at the topic of body image more broadly rather than a specific to to sport, because particularly in community sport, you know, that's, that's they're all people. They're not we're not, you know, drilling them down into to elite athletes. So definitely having a look. So Butterfly [Foundation], we've got lots of, you know, tip sheets and information. I love the AIS, so while it has been designed for, obviously coaches of of higher level and higher performing athletes, I think the information, the resources around disordered eating in sport, there is, is fantastic as well. So Butterfly [Foundation] have a range of resources and information that that can be accessed. Butterfly [Foundation] also has our Body Kind Sports, which is which offers supports to community-based through to pathway environments that can really help coaches and sport administrators and parents to understand their role in supporting positive body image.

Annabelle White [00:32:39] Thank you Nikki and Danni both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information. If today's podcast was triggering to you, there is support available. Please reach out to the Butterfly National Helpline. The details will be included in the show notes.

Thanks for listening.

To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the ASC’s Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is Annabelle White and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your teammates, fellow coaches and officials, and friends.

This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.